Taken from a somewhat recent post in "Are Vampires in TES undead?" topic. It actually brought up something I find irritating, and it can be said of the opposite side.

TES is fictitious. I am hoping, praying that we all are aware of this. But so are aliens and the fact that as of right now, there is no other planet we are aware of that is capable of sustaining life. You can argue it, and really, I am using VERY weak anologies to present my argument. But I do have a point relative to planets and life...

We can only really judge whether a planet is capable of sustaining life based on what we know is already able to have life -- and that is our planet. We know that all life requires requires temperatures, oxygen/CO2, and H2O. Not because it actually is the only factors, but it is the only factors we know of where life exists. But we're hard-pressed to find actual ones. In fact, just recently, a discovery of one (I think it was even referred to as the most earth-like) was recanted as they lost it - literally; it cannot be found anymore.

And like finding a planet that is earth-like, we can only judge the world we know based on what we do know, what is familiar. So when we talk about lore, part of the real why we add RL science into a fantasy setting is because it is what is most familiar. And that being said, it doesn't mean it cannot be added, or that even it shouldn't. The developers/writers are part of our world and act like us.

So I ask why can't we ? The fantasy world of TES in a lot of ways does act like our real life, despite a lot, if not most, being treated with magic and etc. I am sure they have six like we do. It is not stated whether they do or not, but we assume they do, I believe. It is my opinion that evolution also behaves much the same way it does in our world. I could go on with many things that are "IMO" on how they relate or possibly work like the real world.

I tried to argue in that same Vampire thread that Vampires were not actually undead, not just from one point, but several, though majorly from a scientific/biological. And that is when the person made the statement about using RL science and applying it to TES, a fictional-work. (No intent of insult, friend! Just using your comment as an example!)

Anyways.... At the end of this... It comes down to me asking why we cannot apply RL science to TES, and if we were to add it to how we approach lore, what could possibly change, if anything? This does not, IMO, mean gods cannot exist or magic. I think the two would go hand-in-hand. And, I mean, after all, our world is merely energy assembled, right? Energy and magic could be interchangeable.

So, more coherently:

Can science be applied to lore?

What topics, if any, can it be applied to? What should it stay away from?
If we were to apply it to our approach more directly, instead of indirectly or subconsciously, would any lore change? (Without destroying the original lore, merely changing how it is viewed.. I.E. applying RL science to answering whether Vampires are actually undead or not).

-Make more sense?
-Make less?
-Open up more lore, possibly connecting?

(And please excuse my pathetic topic, I am bored, tired, waiting for class to start. And frankly, the lore section is slow lately, lol.)

While RL isn't very useful if you are trying to comprehend TES astronomy, metaphysics, and places where there is a clearly stated mechanical difference, it's perfectly useful when anolyzing things like vampires and other lower-things. These things aren't stated to work at a level that is impossibly different from reality, and thus it can be a useful alternative anolytical persepctive. It's also useful when trying to determine things about wars and the like, since to a certain extent we can use RL to determine, for example, weapon performance in non-magical weaponry. (If you want to see the flaws in using RL anolysis on the more mundane, the fan-fic section would make a good case study)

The problem with trying to apply real life science to the Elder Scrolls is that a lot of the rules of the setting don't follow real life science. Now, I'm not just talking about the obvious stuff like the presence of magic and lizard-men. Anyone can see those things without really performing any research into the setting. I'm talking about less obvious things, like the fact that, according to what we're told in the lore the stars in the sky are actually holes in Oblivion which lead to Aetherius, with the light and magicka of Aetherius passing through, and the sun is the largest hole, which, I assume I don't need to tell anyone, are very different from what the stars are in real life. And the moons are the torn remains of the dead god Lorkhan. Rather than balls of rock orbiting the planet of Tamriel. Someone who hasn't researched the lore might not know this,

But while the lore often contradicts real life science, I think that sometimes people can react a little too strongly to any attempt to bring real life scientific logic into the Elder Scrolls. I guess this might come from the negative reaction that taking an element that was originally protrayed as supernatural, or at least mysterious, and trying to explain it off as scientific can cause in some fandoms, in which case, I can understand it, but sometimes, it gets a little unreasonable. Now, I agree that you shouldn't expect things in the Elder Scrolls to work like in real life, but that doesn't mean reality is NEVER applicable to the setting. In general, when it comes to fiction, I expect things to work pretty much like we'd expect them to in real life where we're not told otherwise. In other words, we can bring elements of reality into a discussion of lore if they do not contradict the known lore. At the very least, to the extent that the lore allows it, we can apply real life logic to the mundane aspects of the setting. We can probably assume that gravity has pretty much the same effect on things as it would in real life, even if the mechanics behind how gravity works is different. Similarly, the people of Tamriel likely still need to eat and sleep, and an unhealthy lifestyle will still have an adverse effect on their health.

In the end, the Elder Scrolls is not reality, so we should expect some degree of defience of the logic we'd use in real life, but this doesn't mean real life logic is never applicable. After all, the Elder Scrolls still draws many things from reality, because that's something both the creators and the fans understand. It would likely get pretty confusing if nothing in the setting worked like you'd expect it to in real life, even a fully mundane thing.

I love you, DR. You're not afraid to stray from the masses, lol. But seriously, I completely agree it is impossible to add RL where something is stated plainly to be mechanically different and is fact. Astronomy applies, as well. And, of course, you cannot forget Metaphysics, either. But concerning magic, I think it is more than fine to use science with magic, combining the two to explain things. As I stated, I view magic more of just another word for energy. And that's how it is viewed even in our world. Qi, kai, chakra, etc, these all refer to energy. And... Unfortunately I am running out of time and will have to finish my thoughts. I need to get to class.

There's no problem with using real life facts and situations to explain the unexplained in TES lore, PROVIDED that you can fully take the context you're trying to explain into consideration. Occam's Razor.

I'm also not sure why the vampire topic took off so much. I know that in-game vampires are stated as undead on more than one occasion.

The Elder Scrolls is a fictional universe - a fantasy universe no less. As you have already acknowledged, its not real at all. What this means is that debates about the nature of the "world" are trivially irrelevant; we can talk about the meaning and intent of the media, but the universe that media claims to represent is elusive because it does not exist. You cannot apply science to The Elder Scrolls, therefore, because you cannot apply science to a series of representations.

The fact is, the world is manifestly in the center of the universe, and stars are literally pinholes in the rotating curtain of night that lead to the world of the Magna Ge, and the laws of nature are sentient individuals. That kind of clashes with even the basic ideas of realityworld science.

That thread was ressurected by foul necromancy, it's arguements retreaded in it's undead corpse.

An arrow shot from a bow in Falkreath will behave identically to an arrow shot from a bow in Mombasa. This is convenience and convenience only.

The velocity of the Ministry of Truth was X, X being defined by the exact velocity sufficient to demonstrate the spite of an ex-God trying to teach his people a lesson.

And we can't still apply science to other areas? Do races not evolve? By whatever means? Orcs are an evolved humanoid. The factor may have been something magical, in a manner of speaking, but does that really change anything? In the TES world, magic is natural. I am not trying to use science to disprove anything, as one would here in the real world. I accept what stars really are in TES, and other larger parts of lore. But what does that matter? I can still use science for other things in it. Again, NOT to disprove, but to explain or perhaps alter (if necessary, not for bias). As I started in the original post, I argued vampires were not undead, despite being canonized as such. Why? Because I disagree with it. I may be using real life to apply it to the game, but again, I don't think in this instance it matters. But of course this is somewhat disproving legitimacy of being undead, but that's semantics. What I was doing was offering a debate/theory on Vampires from a perspective other than a possibly influenced and fallible mortal in the TES universe who declared them as such.

And, to reiterate some things that I had stated in the vampire thread, I don't believe they really die, it is metaphorical or symbolic. I believe they are still living but under effects of the disease (which I refer to more as a virus), and it helps explain a lot of other unexplained things regarding vampires, including the Grey Prince. Now, I won't state any of this is fact. How can I? I cannot canon it. ;P I am not a lore-writer. And they still can be undead and exhibit those behaviours regardless of anything since they are in a fantasy world. But I ask yet again... Why does that matter? Why is it somehow wrong or impossible to offer an alternative? We offer theories on so many things on how we think things operate, with or without lore evidence on so many areas of lore. Yet we refuse to offer science a small part? I am by no means saying everything should be scientific or judged by the way our world operates. In fact, I think it should be a combination of both, with magic of course over-ruling science.

And science doesn't have to do anything negative, either, when used. "Oh, well, science says this about stars, but TES stars work this way, so..." Not at all. In fact, why not use science to enhance it?

I realize by now, after all, I may seem rather rude and, well.. Immature. Possibly like a lot of other ignorant posters where you are just like "Why in the world are you posting...? You're so stupid." And I don't mean stupid or ignorant as an insult, but mere fact in the sense of little to no comprehension or grasp of material, etc.

So I apologize... I'm just on the drug known as lack-of-sleep. I'm better when I get sleep.

... man, that was a LOT.

Well, see, the way I work it is "science is magic and vice versa" in Tamriel. Things literally work by magic. Now if you wanted to use the scientific method to find something in the way Tamriel works, sure, that would be fine and probably really fun. But I tend to assume, unless otherwise stated, that things don't work the way they do in realityworld. You brought up evolution. In tamriel, it works by having your patron deity eaten by another god. To the best of my knowledge, that's not quite how that works out here.

If you mean "science" as "process of reasoning involving hypothesis, experiment, etc." then sure, apply science. If you mean the physical rules of Earth, that's not going to work.

The ES timeline isn't long enough to allow for Darwinian evolution. And if you haven't noticed, in the fantasy genre, appearance always fits the cultural values of a species. Tamriel is a world of literalized metaphor. Where in most fantasy worlds, mythical creatures are real, in Tamriel myth is real. It is synonymous with history, and storytelling is a force that reality. See how silly your biology looks whenever there is the slightest whiff of this stuff? So sure, wax scientific on vampires, but only because there's no good lore on them anyways.

More often it is diametrically opposed.

I didn't read the OP fully, but I don't think you've been rude.

There's nothing wrong with calling any of that scientific, in terms of TES, though. And yes, I tend to call magic science in TES, as well. But in terms of actual scientific evolution, no one is identical. And mutations occur. And the offspring will resemble a parent, normally the mum, but not the point. We don't know all about how genetics work in TES.

@Lady N. - Some laws or theories, but obviously not all, and definitely not a great amount. But given the fact the writers are human, I think it is more than justifiable to use some real world physical rules in certain instances. And besides, until everything is explained to-a-T, and it never will, we can always debate it.

Well, no, I don't see how silly, lol. And I don't look at TES being fiction, even though it is, when I go about debating. I treat it as being real, which is perhaps not something to do. But I am not saying that, in this, I judge it by our world. I am meaning I am applying explanations for things. Kinda like how it was once thought the world was flat until later discovered it wasn't. Or why the sun revolved around the earth, being the older explanation, only later to be discovered it's the opposite. I am not trying to use science as a rule or a law, I pick and choose what to use to offer explanations, not looking at science as a whole. I use biology to describe why maybe vampires are not actually dead, and behave the way they do, and use my personal belief at the side of it saying they don't really die, it is symbolic/metaphorical. And undead, even in TES, are the actual definition, save vampires, and that definition being a corpse reanimated. I could argue the opposite and describe how vampires are undead and how the disease would behave. But even then, that could be described from a scientific perspective based on the real world, while still labeling it (both undead and still alive) magic and fantasy. In terms of speaking about TES, I call magic and science the same.

Science is the refutation of magic. It is entirely wrongheaded to think of magic in terms of scientific laws and properties.

Actually, not quite. I take a class on magic and science in ancient Greece and Rome, and essentially magic is trying to understand and control the world around oneself by invocation of the supernatural, while science has the same goal from a wholly naturalistic perspective.

Although really it's just splitting hairs and semantics. Because when I say "Tamrielic science is magic," what I mean by it is "the rules are magic," and not actually "science."

Not in the Elder Scrolls universe. Science would embrace magic and continue to set out to explain and rationalize the universe.

Um..no..that's not the definition of what science is at all.

Perhaps my phrasing was unclear. I should have said that magic is the refutation of science.

I don't give two half damns about your definition of science or your classes on magic, I am talking about the mythos here and you should be too. This is a collection of works - video games, text documents, visual art - which represent a "fictional universe" and very intentionally do so in a manner which is inconsistent within itself and impossible to codify into any sort of rules. You simply cannot attempt to apply science to this mythos because it is the explicit intention of its authors that science be inapplicable.

Magic is not alternative physics. Maybe you know other definitions of "magic," but when I say "magic" I mean that which cannot be systematized.

Then I think we need more words because we just had a very unfortunate misunderstanding likely caused by the fact that when many people talk about throwing in science and technology into TES they mean by it actual real-world physics.

The type of Science the Dwemer practiced was not at all atheistic or anti-magic for that matter. Unless my understanding of their beliefs is essentially flawed, they were attempting to reach a higher state of being themselves rather than worship what they considered lesser spirits (aedra or daedra).

Well you can't do that either. I mean, things fall down, right? But that's not because of gravity, that's because the reader expects things to fall down.

Things fall down, except when they don't. That's why science doesn't apply.

I think it is just easier to attach reality to elder scrolls because most of it's key concepts death, slavery, Racism are real and it is really hard to ignore that.

A joke of a book refers to Dwarf-magic as "science," it appears once in a book by Kirkbride, crucially in brackets. Science is not an accurate word to describe the actions of the Dwemer.