That's a great idea, and very funny. Thank you. But I don't understand the second part.

And don't forget, Mehrunes choice of Kvatch for destruction can be put down to petty vengeance and not a heavy-handed attempt at killing one man.

If Uriel adopts a stranger then as the Emperor decrees that stranger is then of Uriel's blood. A fine joke and might explain why the assassins never found Martin until it was too late for them

Note sure if you mean the second paragraph of the post or the second sentance you have quoted.

There was all that fuss about the others heirs and doppelgangers - and the assassins, likely using magical means, run around looking for Uriel's blood, his children. Mehrunes Dagon is looking for Uriel's blood. And what they really needed to kill was not originally of Uriel's blood and so there would have been no actual link sixually with any woman to establish that. All that fuss to no purpose.

Meanwhile all Uriel has had to do is select a child of good parents and ensure that he is given a fine upbringing with precisely the sort of people that all those who spoiled his other offspring or other surviving Septims would despise and declare that the child is his heir. Bingo bango bongo Mehrunes and co have rid Uriel of his no-good offspring and family and Uriel has a fine man to succeed him. Dagon actually assisted Uriel while believing that he was destroying him.

Now think of that in terms of our friend Caius in the cemetary ... and that adds pathos to it. You, the player now know that Uriel had the last larf in more ways than one - but how can you tell Caius?

It seems far more likely that Martin is Uriel's biological son though.

He is. This is just a more interesting alternate history.

What happened to the son Barenziah had by the Nightgale/Jagar Tharn? Could that be Martin? I have seen mention of the name Calaxes (sp?) Septim, another bastard?

well, lets see, is Martin a dunmer?

And Calaxes was another bastard of Uriel's (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/wordsandphilosophy.shtml.)

So, no on both counts.

Martin Septim isn't related to Uriel Septim at all.

Martin Septim is the offspring of the TES Series Canon and a Sledgehammer.

True that, but it would have wreaked havoc with their "no politics, no intrigue" policy of story writing. Several claimants to the throne? That would have distracted players from dungeon #32, and the McGuffin contained therein.

I've always wondered about the ages. I put Martin at early 30s - In Jauffre's in-game dialogue, he says that when Uriel gave him Martin to take away, he was Captain of the Blades. Now, if Jauffre is 60, surely this could not have been more than 30 years ago. I find it hard to believe that he could have achieved the post of Captain in his 20s. It's too young. To cement this, I'm sure the in-game response to asking Jauffre about Baurus triggers a reply that he is the youngest member of the Blades for a long time. Have I just imagined this? And Baurus himself is not much shy of 30, so from then it's just simple maths.

Considering these conversations, unless Jauffre was either a record-breaking prodigy in the Blades, or is much older than we thought, Martin cannot possibly be more than 35.


I like this idea. It could even be that Martin does have a miniscule amount of watered-down Septim blood (considering how many bastards must have been born over the years), just not Uriel's. And even if not, it's not like the throne hasn't been succeeded by someone with no blood relation to the Septims before. Presumably they wore the Amulet, since it didn't trigger any Dagon shenanigans, so it's no real stretch to imagine Martin could too.


Oh, juicy. I don't know how it could work, but I love the idea.

I read the text, but am confused as to the date mentioned, 3E 498, this makes no sense as Morrowind happens in 3E 427 and Oblivion in 3E433, and yet in 3E 398 Jagar Tharn was still on the throne.

I'm assuming that's a typo which should read 3E 398. Easy mistake; I make it all the time. Jagar Tharn being in power by that point wouldn't necessarily impede the assassination.

Jagar Tharn betrayed Uriel Septim in 3E 389 and was "defeated" in 3E 399. This doesn't necessarily mean that the storyline of TES: Arena spanned all ten years of his regime, however.

As I know it, though, Barenziah was impregnated with Jagar Tharn's child when spending her time with him to decipher his journal for Ria Silmane, so I'm assuming that child was conceived shortly before or during TES: Arena.

Indeed, not to mention we're really not given any reason to think that he ISN'T the son of Uriel Septim.

Not that this means you can't make a mod that says he is not, but it might take a bit of work to make people not ask "Why?" when you say that Martin is not the son of Uriel. And as far as the Elder Scrolls canon is concerned, I don't think we have any reason to believe this unless a developer comes out and says "Martin Septim is not Uriel Septim's son." which makes the entire plot of Oblivion seem rather pointless, since it seemed to revolve around the idea that to stop the Oblivion Crisis and save the Empire, it was necessary to have a true heir of the Septim line. If Martin were NOT such an heir, shouldn't it mean anyone could have played his role, even the Champion of Cyrodiil?

Ultimately, with these things, I'd say that if you're told they're true in the game by a trustworthy source, you can generally assume they are unless you're given a reason to believe otherwise. Jauffre seems trustworthy enough on this matter, and no one who would be expected to know speculates that Martin is not Uriel's son, so I'd say we can assume he is.

There is always the possibility that Martin was his grandson, but if Uriel had one bastard then it's not a stretch to imagine two, or even more! Perhaps we shall be playing hunt the heir again in the next instalment!

I don't think Bethesda would copy themselves in the next game. Probably there will be another Tiber Septim-type character who's trying to reconquer seceding provinces, or something. But if that's what happens in a hypothetical TES V, to me it won't work either -- not for the player character to be the one, nor for the player to follow around an NPC who's trying to be the emperor.

Yes - the OP is about finding a strong theme that would permit the speculation that Martin is not the biological issue without breaking the thrust of the Ob plot. Maybe Paw-Prints has come up with a good one:
paw-prints-in-the-mud


- add in this: to give a twist to Cassius's musing about his dead Emperor http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosades_visit.shtml and maybe that can make for good modding material?

And the OP has also been directing his thought to doppelgangers

Mind you the OP may have a different intention entirely, but it's hard to diverge too far without breaking the sense of the plot as you say so he needs all the detail that he can get.

But seriously, who hasn't given it to that harlet Barenziah?

I think Barenziah is more than that. She had a difficult life, knowing everything from destitution and being a [censored] victim (the famous Khajiit scene wasn't really consensual) to riches (but in a court filled with intrigue, where again she was practically a puppet of others). I've read Ted Peterson's take on her during the Lore RP of 2005-2007, and by the time we see her at the end of the Third Era she was someone my character could respect as a survivor.

It may be that Bahrenziah was a normal girl with needs of her own who liked males. Apparently that is a healthy trait of dunmer girls - is it surprising that a girl who stays young for hundreds of years would play a few games? Being free-willed she was happy to play games with her first lover but then her life was taken over by older, unscrupulous and/or powerful men who gave her a choice of doing their will, imprisonment or death. Finally, when the opportunity presented itself she chose a powerful man to marry of her own will and when he died she remained single. That suggests that she has sort of settled down a bit.

I adore Barenziah. She's one of the most interesting characters in The Elder Scrolls Series, and definitely the most interesting female one.

Oh, and don't forget that her two biological children are corrupt, scheming, power-hungry, blackmailing, up-to-no-good brats.

Me too. And I think it's telling that she's been involved, if not integral, to all the main Elder Scrolls games to date besides Oblivion. She's pretty much the only character who can claim that.

Actually, the OP's goal just morphed into this when it was made definitively clear that the actual goal put forth in the first post was not feasible. From the first post:



As neat of an idea as the suggested mod is, and as intriguing as the conversation it has spawned may be, if a mod is made that asserts in any direct way that Martin is not the son of Uriel VII, then it simpy won't be able to be described as even remotely "lore-accurate," and will - by definition - be in direct contradiction of many in-game elements.

Yes, he is the real son of Uriel Septim VII. The proof is he was able to equip the Amulet of Kings. His mother was Gemile. Uriel VII had two illegitimate children, the other one was Calaxes.

No one but a Septim can equip the Amulet of Kings without someone modding it to remove that quality. Also, Akatosh unites with Martin to save Tamriel. The gods don't just pop in to help the average Joe.

Martin is in his early 30's.

*** Why don't you make it a baby that Caula Voria had by Tharn during the 10 years Uriel was being held captive in Oblivon? It would get it's power from Tharn that way.