Hello,

In a mod i'm currently writing, I speculate that Martin could not be the son of Uriel. I want my mod to be as lore accurate as possible, and not to contradict any in-game elements. As far as I know, there're only three proofs in game :
1. Jauffre tells he is the son of the emperor
2. he is able to wear the Amulet of Kings
3. he becomes a Dragon at the end of the game

I've imagined an explanation for 1, and it has been largely discussed in this forum that 2 and 3 have little to do with being of the Septim bloodline. Do you know any other proofs ? What do you know about Martin's life before 3e433 (I know he worshiped Sanguyne a long time ago).

Thanks for your answers.

Cogite

The emperor did have him as a baby, before telling Jauffre. Jauffre tells you this, and I doubt Uriel kidnapped the kid.

#2 is not a proof at all. Gortwog could wear the Amulet of Kings if you gave it to him.


But yeah, he is Uriel's natural son. Even Caius Cosades knows that.

Here's some backup for the above posts:
From Oblivion's Storyline on TIL:

"Uriel
I can go no further. You alone must stand against the Prince of Destruction and his mortal servants. He must not have the Amulet of Kings! Take the Amulet. Give it to Jauffre. He alone knows where to find my last son. Find him, and close shut the jaws of Oblivion.

An assassin apears from an hidden passage.

Uriel is struck and dies.
http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/tsoo01.shtml


"The Emperor asked me to find his son.
I am one of the few who know of his existence. Many years ago, I served as captain of Uriel's bodyguards, the Blades. One night Uriel called me in his private chambers. A baby boy lay sleeping in a basket. Uriel told me to deliver him somewhere safe. He never told me anything else about the baby, but I knew it was his son. From time to time he would ask about the child's progress. Now, it seems that this illegitimate son is the heir to the Septim Throne. If he yet lives.

Where can I find Uriel's son?
His name is Martin. He serves Akatosh in the Chapel in the city of Kvatch, south of here, mever knew that he was Uriel Septim's son. You need to find him at once and bring him safely back here. You must go to Kvatch and find him at once. If the enemy is aware of his existence, as seems likely, he is in terrible danger. And please, let me know if there's anything you need. My resources here are limited, but I will help in any way I can."
- http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/tsoo02.shtml


The snippet Gez mentioned is taken from a post by Ken Rolston (yeah, the one and only) here on the forums:
""I hear it wasn't a pretty time. I can't say I'm sorry to lose your three sons. None of them worth a fig, as I've told you many times... not to your face, of course... but nonetheless, I know it must have hurt bitter-hard, harder than the Dawnman's daggers, I expect.

"But in the end, you'd got Martin well-hidden away... you sly dog, I never guessed... and he turned out to be worth twice the lot of those preening fools you got on the scheming witch, Caula Voria, may she die again tomorrow. Who was his mother? Was it that Gemile girl you had put out of the way, right after the Warp in the West?" "
- http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosades_visit.shtml

hehehehe... Caius?s Visit, one of the most beautiful TES text I?ve read.

I really loved that piece.

Thank you for your inputs

I had already read these texts. The last one doesn't sound like a great proof for me, as Caius says he never guessed that Martin existed before the Oblivion crisis. And if I assume that Uriel and Jauffre had a good reason to lie, I can ignore the first ones. But I like this text a lot.

I'm not saying that my theory reflects the truth. I just wants to know if I can write my mod without contradicting the lore too much.

Do you know how old are really Jauffre and Martin ? TESCS ages are not accurate - if Martin is 50 and Jauffre 60, then Jauffre cannnot have been Uriel's captain when Martin was a baby. Looking at Martin, I'd say he is about 40. Which can't be if he is the son of Uriel, as he was the prisonner of Jagar Tharn at that time. So Martin has to be either younger than 34 or older than 44.

Do you know who are the other few who konw of the existence of Martin ?

Thanks

Martin's probably mother is someone names Gemile, who Uriel had "put away" right after the Warp in the West. So that may have happened when Martin was born or when he came of age and became more of a political threat worth keeping in the dark. Try the math there.

Lols - it depends what you think of Caius Cosades and the Blades. Personally I see that little afterthought as the best proof of all - because there was no particular gain for Caius or anyone to be had by then - assuming they believe Martin to be dead. And the portrayal of such reminiscence can only come from the heart of a Bard - even truer. And therefore it pleases me.

Where is this text from...I have yet to see it in oblivion.

Ghost

I know its hard to accept it, because that will ruin the idea for your mod. But every single source says that Martin is Uriel's son. Nothing even vaguely hints to the oppisite. I know it's hard to accept, but you should admit that martin is the son before you start to look stubborn.

Do your mod anyway, its ok for people to have out-there opinions in Tamriel.

In game, Martin is Uriel's only living son. But that's no reason for your mod not to say "No, they were wrong; Martin was Mankar Camoran's bastard, and Uriel's bastard was actually (fill in name here)"; as long as you hang a hat on it, make it clear you know the lore but that for purposes of the mod that lore was misinterpretted or outright wrong, it will work fine.

There is no irrefutable proof, and it would even be a better story if Uriel lied about Martin. The Emperor was portrayed like such a fool sometimes that he deserves a clever scheme. Say that he knew the true nature of the Covenant and the succession, and decided to support a good man over his dilettante grandchildren.

Especially as by background history, he really should be politcially astute. Going by the Brief History of the Empire, under his prececcessors all the way back to Uriel IV the Empire was pretty fragmentated. More then seems to be the case in the games we see... of course his immdiate precedessors helped in renewing the Empire, but he seems to have had big part in that, too.

Especially if you consider all the damage done when Jagar Tharn was impersonating him...

For an interesting possibility along this line of thinking, you might want to consider Jagar Tharn's simulacra.

Jagar Tharn reportedly replaced several prominent figures with doppelgangers during his reign. These are essentially (magickal?) clones created to enforce Tharn's position in power. The original individuals were imprisoned or killed, I would imagine.

The simulacra are mentioned in http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_9.shtml- Uriel's heirs were rumored to be simulacra - and in the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/forum.shtml.

Hmm... Daggerfall's lore hasn't been entirely retconned yet, has it?

That's true. The only thing Oblivion needed to do to avoid the lack-of-heirs snaffu was have Uriel tell us that his sons really were dopplegangers.

Hello and thanks to everybody.


That's a very good point. Thank you. I'll think about it.


I know that Martin is Uriel'son. I just want to write a different story, which I find more interesting. And I want to do so just by adding things to the game, not by removing anything.





My story is based on these points : Uriel knew his sons wouldn't have kept the throne long, as "none of them worth a fig" and they were believed to be Doppelganger. So he imagined some kind of "backup plan" with Jauffre.

So, up to now, the proofs are :
- Uriel told us that he has another son and that Jauffre knows where he is
- Jauffre told us that Martin is the son of Uriel
- Caius believes Martin is the son of Uriel and (maybe) Gemile
- Nobody doubts it

Hm. Well, as said, I was going by what we see in the games, where the Empire is reasonably internally strong. One could hadrly have had all that impeiral ifnrastructure in comparably seditive Morowind if it was otherwise!

Per the Brief History:
Under Uriel IV, Emperor and Elder Council were in constant dispute, weakning the Emperor's power.
Under Cephorus II the Camoran Usurper ravaged western Tamriel, and he was stopped by regional, not imperial forces. From thereon, fragmentation starts.
Uriel V managed it to band together the various forces for his grand project, the conquest of Akavir, but di dnot inf act repair imperial administrtaion, and his detah in Akavir probably only helped fragmentation further.
Uriel VI's reign started with an overlong Elder Council regency, further weakening central power. He eventually managed to wrestle power from the EC, and began to reform the Empire - but only his successor, his sister Morihatha created a working government for Cyrodiil, while there still wasnt for the outer provinces (!!!).
Morihatha tried to correct that, but was being deliberatly slow, so she only started to repeair the damage.
And her precedessor, her nephew Pelagus, Uriel VIIs father, is described as being ineffective.

So, by deduction, it must have been Uriel VII who continued and finished Morihathas work. As we do see an orderly Imperial presence in the outer provinces, after all. I dunno if thats a retcon (if, it was by Morrowind already). One could intepret that on that even Uriel had not been entirely successful and finished up with the repairs.

"The great Numidium, its raw power tempered only by the Blades, crushes all the rebellious children of the Empire, destroying their armies."

Maybe it helped Uriel VII re-establishing his power.

It helped, but its effects were only at the Illiac Bay...

Let's not forget what Geilir the Mumbling said:

When the dragon dies, the Empire dies.
Where is the lost dragon's blood, the Empire's sire?
And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?

Then if you wanted to be creative I recommend adding paw's suggestion above that Uriel decided to present someone unrelated as his son ...

power wise:
If Uriel adopts a stranger then as the Emperor decrees that stranger is then of Uriel's blood. A fine joke and might explain why the assassins never found Martin until it was too late for them