I accept MK sources that are backed up with ingame lore. Books, quests, or what have you. Bethesda could've added stories about pelinal in the 500, but it they didn't. and frankly if they did, it'd end up being Pelinal and the 500, not Ysgramor and the 500.

This guy is a nord so what's your point?

The Thalmor "unmaking Mundus" is not backed up either. All we have is Ancano who is clearly self-interested as he says: "I - hence the big I will unmake the world!" This is not a valid enough to warrant as proof. Neither does a casual remark from Esbern, who can not even truly know the Thalmor's intentions as he is not one of them, has been living in utter seclusion and thus cannot know, and is mortal and not omnipresent.




Ysgrammor is a scrub. This man is the true hero of the Nords. A shame he went a little batso...

My main point being: The works of an unnaturally talented master enchanter does not warrant the "entirety of Nords being uber". The 500 won because of his magical endeavors. Rather you accept MK or not, the point stands: The Nords did not win out of genuine "badassery" so-to-speak. They had divine-like help. To assume otherwise is utter fantasy, and quite ridiculous.

Are you seriously implying this guy enchanted gear for every single warrior in the 500?

No, but it's strongly implied that that is their end goal. It aligns with their views and hopes, anyways. They've always wanted to return to before the Dawn.

It is much more believable than Ysgrammor and his 500 taking down an army of Falmer, oh wait!


You are now arguing Bethesda confirmed in-game lore. You are now contradicting yourself.


Master sorcerers are capable of amazing feats. Kagrenac zero-summed his entire race. Divayth Fyr, cloned himslef and single-handedly acquired numerous Daedric artifacts. 4 Psijiics teleported the Eye of Magnus to Artaeum. They can also make the isle of Artaeum teleport at will... Dare I go on? Ahzidal enchanting 500 weapons is such a small feat in comparison it is laughable.


Magic is a wondrous thing. A pity the modern day nords don't appreciate it. It's what saved their savage asses in the old days.

He had plenty of time to prepare. He'd been hoping to get his revenge for years, possibly decades. He could have had such an armory that he would be disappointed by Ysgamor's less than stellar numbers.

Plus, it's equally plausible that he could have brought a great many soul gems along with him, and gear he couldn't supply better versions of he replaced with his own stuff he just enchanted on the spot.

I haven't read the book in a long time, and Bethesda's books have been known to be false before. Example being the Bear of Markarth.

And if he had enchanted gear for every single member of the 500, there'd be way more special anti elf weaponry and armor. Or even just plain magical nord goods.

Gameplay doesn't equal lore

It's been a long time since the 1E. Maybe they've just been carried throughout Tamriel?

More than possible that all the other gear was eventually broken, just like Wuuthrad.

Yeah I suppose so. If Nords take the ritual vikings had after defeating their foes, they'd break their foe's weapons after killing them to help ensure that they wouldn't come back from Hel to seek reprisal.

But, if that was the case, we'd probably see that reflected in the lore.

Of course not. It's "an accurate representation of it". You wouldn't have TES game-play period were it not for the lore. And vice versa. Lore wise, the Draugr Deathlords are more more powerful than your typical soldier. They are afterall, undead Nordic elite soldiers.






So first it's: MK is not true because no ingame lore. Then it's: some in-game lore wrong. ooooooookaaay.


Sorry, but you cannot just twist TES lore to your ****ing whim. We now have VARIOUS sources for the true nature of the 500 vs the one typical nordic version that is told while drunk around a warm camp-fire.


I wonder which one is correct. The unknown book talking about a fallen master enchanter that no common nord will know about, an obscure metaphysical text that inscribes EVERY single name of the 500 in detail. Or some fantasy Nordic embellishment told around a camp fire?



To paraphrase a quote from Farengar...

"A sure sign of a fool, is one who is quick to denounce everything outside his expertise, as pure impossibilities" - Farengar Secret-Fire.

Well if you want to misrepresent my argument, okay. You need to be able to judge what is actual truth and what isn't, because Bethesda doesn't add all truth. If that was the case, the Bear of Markarth would be true. the Talos Mistake would be true. etc. When judging if a book is true, you look for evidence that supports it. Did Azhidal enchant items amazingly? Yes. We know it just from his gear. Is it possible he enchanted Wuuthrad? Yeah. Is it possible he enchanted the Bloodskal Blade? Maybe, I don't know the timeline on that sword. Yngol's Helm? Sure. But there aren't mountains of Nordic artifacts, man.

To quote Socrates,

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

As much as we hate to talk about gunpowder weapons in TES. The redguards have quite a few canons that could be useful for any army planning on invading Alinor.

How are both the Bear of Markarth, and the Talos mistake wrong?

Funny you should quote Socrates in that manner, you seem to do the exact opposite. You quickly disregard ALL sources pointing to the 500 as something OTHER than your sources on it as told by Nordic embellishment.


Furthermore, you have even admitted in one of our Nord vs Falmer arguements that you ARE biased. lol much?

the Bear of Markarth says all of the forsworn were executed via Igmund. It says Ulfric demanded Talos worship. I forgot the rest, but Silverblood says Igmund personally stopped the executions and Igmund himself admits he offered Ulfric free worship. As for the Talos Mistake, well it says Talos isn't a god.

Well, thus far there hasn't been much to say it wasn't 500 nords. The lore is 500 nords. MK says there were 500, though he says dragons and dragon priests. Seems Bethesda picks and chooses bits and pieces from MK's work to go with. They could've said Pelinal was there. They could've said Alduin and the dragons were there.

Instead they said a master enchanter was there. There's some evidence to support it, what with Wuuthrad and Yngol's Helm, but there isn't any evidence to support that he personally geared the entire army.

Don't bother with Hevnoraak on the 500 companions or Ahzidal issue. Colonel and I wasted 5 pages a couple days ago debating with him about the thing. I think it was my thread about which human race was best at killing Mers

Oh, okay. Got you.

I decided to re-read those two books myself.


How is the Talos Mistake wrong? Why? Because it states that worshipping Talos whom is just the Nordic replacement for Shor whom is Lorkhan instead of the other Divines? This is clearly fact.

Because it God-forbids, paints the Thalmor in a humanly, and therefore relate-able way? Because it gives a DIFFERENT VIEW on Talos, whom you favored race worships above all else?


How is the Bear of Markarth wrong? Becaue it paints a negative view on benevolent Jesus Ulfric Storm-cloak? Because god-forbid soemone writes an account on Ulfric and his henchmen doing a dishonorable thing, or conquering another region that belonged to another group? Because it paints YOUR FAVORED RACE as villains?


I apologize you can't just ignorantly see the Nords as the epiphany of mankind, the saviors of man-kind. Embellished stories of 500 men heroically taking on a demon Falmer horde in a valiant honorable way instead of a more a more believable reason(Dragon cult bringing their Dragon Overlords to help OR Master Enchanter and Wizard using his masterful magic to enchant a laughably small amount of 500 weapons) . Or that the Stormcloaks are not benevolent with a TRULY JUST cause because their is NO SUCH THING AS A TRULY JUST CAUSE. and that Ulfric's actions have indeed cost A LOT of innocent lives while even bringing forth the End of Times itself.

Treng and I have been debating this issue for FAR LONGER than just your thread.

A Dragon Priest complaining about the event that would lead to the return of his Lord Alduin. /ahhh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ahhh:' />

Quiet you!

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