No, they can be in dds format as well. Check out this http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=71400, which I bumped almost 2 years ago. You must, indeed, use an enchantment with it, since it overrides the envmap; however, you don't have to attenuate anything with gloss maps, you can just fine-tune the Luma parameters until you reach the right effect (see http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=67232, for instance).

Btw, as far as I remember, using Plangkye's "plastic-wrap killer" (just as any other similar mod) will also kill the above-described method. Use a vanilla magic effect; note they are different colored and you can change your fake envmap based on that colour; if you have multiple effects in an enchantment, just put the one you like most on the top of the list (that's what I did for Wraithguard).

To the OT: there is probably no proper tutorial and, the more you'll read on this forum, the more confused you'll get. What I did to learn how to do this: just take an existing bumped object (IE. one of my shields), and check out the changes done to the nodes when comparing to a non-bumped shield. Look at the Effects node (where you need to add the EnvMap), then make a nice normal map (I always used the Nvidia plugin for Photoshop, or Crazybump Beta occasionally), then add it, and fine-tune the Luma settings. If you want to see how they are different, try http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6655 and compare the different coins there. Until the shaders will be improved for MW, this is probably your best way of doing things (if you fail, don't be shy, I'm only a PM away)... I hope I could be of help.

Cheers,
PKR.

I suggest, if you use any of PKR's stuff, or anybody else's for that matter, to figure out how to put these effects into practice, use one of the coins or something that has only 1 base texture (diffuse.) Opening a file with more then one texture can be overwhelming and lead to baldness. XD

Once you have a working model to work from then it is simply a task of copy\paste.


Anyway, I have heard rumors of normal mapping, spec, SSS, and possibly other junk along those lines being worked on for MGE at least. Lets all hope that these rumors will soon become fact.

From Hrnchamd http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1009286&hl=

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The main problem is how to get from the source files on disk to this LdUdV map. I had the solution back there but it really needs better explaining. It's all about the pixel layout. Internally, deep in the fixed function pixel shader, dU gets fetched from red, dV from green and L from blue. That's right, the gloss is in the blue channel. However, the texture sampler does its own operations to get signed values out of the dUdV channels, if you set the wrong texture format, this sign extension doesn't happen.
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My idea in photoshop. We can remove the red channel only or the blue channel only or the green channel only or the red and green channels and leave the blue. I.e. make a normal map. Then remove the one or two channel and leave the channel/channels the LdUdv map is looking for.

Oh . That's too bad, but thanks for the answer. I figured it would, but was hoping for the contrary after reading the mod description.
Your Wraithguard looks great, but it looks very magical, which is fine, but what I'd like to know is whether it is possible to achieve the exact same look of the textures from one of your shields (an example) on gauntlets/cuirasses? What I mean is, your wraithguard looks great, but you can tell it is enchanted (which, again, works fine in this case), and I was wondering if it was possible to fine-tune/alter the enchanting effect so that it really looks like metal and you can't tell the item is enchanted. Just shiny.
I'm not sure I'm being clear here, I'm really sorry if I'm not!

As for gloss-maps, I was wondering if anyone had actually created any since Hrnchamd wrote the post skydye's linking to? To be honest, I've read Hrnchamd's explanations several times, and while it sounds very interesting... I'm having a hard time understanding everything It is very technical, and I'm really not good at that kind of things. What I would appreciate is to have a good look at a few gloss maps made by people who know what they're doing (unlike me), so that I can learn from their work. Does anyone have gloss map examples they'd be willing to share? (Skydye? Painkiller_rider? Anyone?). :icecream: (I can't mod right now, but I'm trying to learn what I can now in order not to waste too much time reading tutorials this Summer during my limited modding time)

edit: I think I understand how gloss maps embedded in bump maps work (you just put them in the alpha channel right?), but I what I'm curious about are the separate multi-colored gloss maps which are made possible with the mcp fix.^^

I believe a gloss map is just another name for a specular map. I could be wrong on that.

Nope, I don't think it is possible. You need to use an enchantment's magic effect, as the engine won't "read" the envmap for skinned meshes... Also, since you cannot add a new magic effect in the CS, you are stuck with what you have - however, it is possible to recolor a certain effect to match the diffuse texture's general color, or to try to make the texture from the beginning match the effect's color. On one of my 2 examples, I added an enchantment for the Golden Armor (I don't even remember what it was) which was yellow, so it greatly matched the color of the armor, to the point of not being able to notice it at all.


I believe Hrnchamd himself posted an example at the time, using one of my shields from AoW Museum; I also remember trying (successfully) to reproduce the effect. Just follow the precise indications he gives there and you will certainly get the same result.


If I remember well, Hrnchamd's method was to copy the gloss map into the blue channel, not alpha... However, my memory is quite fuzzy (and I didn't work on similar stuff for more than a year), so maybe someone else can better explain this...

I've not read through this thread in its entirety but a note that follows on from PKR's (hello mate!) post is that gloss maps can be used to add color to the enchant effects base color. If an enchant effect is used that has a 'white' base then this can be recolored with a gloss map. Clever coloration of the gloss map can give the look of gold on silver and highlighted colored jewels by altering the color of the enchant effect in a specific area. If this has already been explained or described, then I apologise!

EDIT:

Just to clarify, I believe that by clever use of gloss mapping the use of enchant effects can yield more realistic looking metal.

Thanks. I've tried to look up the difference between gloss and specular maps on google, and I found a wide range of different, sometimes contradictory answers. I'll continue looking ^_^


I saw screenshots of his experiments on one of your shields, but I dont think he actually posted the files. Ah well, I guess I'll have to reread his instructions until I understand everything.


I re-read his instructions and you're right. He made the distinction between height and normal maps; if you have a "height map", apparently you should put the gloss map into the alpha channel, but if it is a "normal map" (which I'm guessing you'd want to use in the majority of cases) then it should be put into the blue channel. At least that's what I understood, but I'm not sure.


Thank you, this is very interesting! I did not know gloss maps could be so powerful. I'll have to mess around with them when I get my morrowind back


Thanks to all three of you for taking the time to answer my questions, I think I know everything I need now. Again, thank you! :foodndrink:

The reason I was so keen for Gloss maps to be honoured by the Morrowind Engine, as the Nif 4.0.0.2 spec calls for, is that they are amazingly powerful.

For example, you can make a mediocre textured pair of black trousers look like dull leather, shiny leather, PVC, lycra or metal.

I've confirmed that they look stupendous on creatures. Real life is stopping me doing final tests on clothing and armour, but I have high hopes.

Just to scotch some disinformation, skinned and/or physiqued meshes have no reason to not work. The 4.0.0.2 spec CALLS for them to work and a NIF doesn't care much how it was produced in 3DSMAX. The only thing that caused an issue was Morrowind node culling (texture count is 2). The patch allows you to turn that off. As long as no other vital nodes are being culled, we're good.

I've been using skinned meshes with gloss maps since 2002 in Freedom Force. Same graphics engine, 4.0.0.2 NIF. Meshers were producing skinned/physiqued Nifs with gloss (aka refl) maps from that time

Aren't these two different maps? the gloss map is supposed (from what I've read) to tone down the ref map, so I'm guessing they're not one and the same.

And well, maybe it's possible to put ref maps on skinned meshes without using enchantment, but as far as I know nobody knows how, so until someone finds out I'm not sure it is disinformation to say it doesn't work. I'm really hoping someone will make a breakthrough by messing around in nifskope, or that Hrnchamd will find a way to patch this with his mcp. If anyone knows, speak up please! Enchanting is ok, but if we could make non-enchanted, shiny cuirasses, that would be great!

Your creatures sound very cool, do you have any screenshots lying around? If you dont mind sharing screenshots of course, I'm just curious ^_^

edit: I feel like I'm posting too much in this thread, sorry if I'm being annoying I'm just very interested in the topic!

I believe a specular map is a type of gloss map. Gloss has to do with if a surface is matted or glossy on the way light reflects off it. I.E. Wood would be matted (very small amount of reflection). but shiny metal would be glossy. The values in between is the differences values from matted to full glossy (0-256)
It's best to use a heavy blur when doing glossy's.

That is much clearer and more useful that any info I found on the web. Practical examples always work best for me. Thank you and, er, I dont have any bird seed but I do have icecream: :icecream:

We need a Bird seed smilely.

The phrase used in the Niftools documentation is gloss maps. The earliest Freedom force meshers called them reflection maps, as they are a map of where fake reflections will be rendered. According to my documentation from Gambryo, they are one and the same, really and truly. There are quite a few supported map types though, 'bump' maps being implemented in the Nif 4.0.0.2 spec, but not in the 3DSMax exporters. I've posted extracts before.

You certainly aren't posting too much. I do intend to put my money where my mouth is when time allows. I'd post screen shots but we learned long ago that they never do the in-game effect justice. There are numerous Freedom Force screen shots where the gloss effect is hardly or not at all noticeable. They need seeing in game so the solution is release of test meshes. I have creatures with gloss maps, and they work a treat. I need time (real life is hammering me at present) to also produce some clothing meshes to demonstrate that skinned meshes support gloss maps, assuming there isn't another issue preventing their use! The Nif spec allows for them on anything, period!

Or if I can't do it, admit that there is a further problem with the way Morrowind composites meshes and hang my head in apology.

Gloss map is a loose term. Just like textures is a loose term. A tree can have apples or oranges or what ever but they are still trees.

Gloss maps can be reflective maps or specular map, I've even heard people refer to Ambient occlusion as Gloss maps. So it all comes down to the synonymic of the word.

But http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1009286&view=findpost&p=14608243 with quotes taken from the Max Immerse Documentation seems to imply that you can have two different maps for the reflection and gloss map slots. For instance:

Is this extract from the documentation refering to something entirely different than what we've been talking about? I'm pretty sure I'm missing something here. I mean, I know you're right, since you've already produced gloss mapped meshes, I'm just a bit confused. In this quote, environment map=reflection map, correct? Or is it something else?

You're right, screenshots never really seem to show the ingame effects correctly. I'm really hoping you'll come up with gloss mapped skinned clothing meshes, but there's no need to hang your head if you don't

I'll have to download this topic when it is no longer active ^_^

@ Skydye: I hadn't seen your post when I posted. You're probably right. I wish there weren't so many words, the terminology associated with textures and 3D is really confusing to laymen like me!

That's why I try and keep things simple. We can all copy of paste out off a something we've read somewhere. But if I say things in my own words. It means I either know it or I don't.

The confusion here is that the gloss map is associated with the actual mesh, just like a normal texture, but the environment map is attached (usually) to a LIGHT. It's usually called (iirc) NiTextureEffect. It's this baby (coupled with no gloss map [effectively an all white map over the entire mesh]) that is responsible for the plastic shrink wrap of enchantment. caust01 (et al) are textures associated with the NiTexture effect nodes. Changing them produces reduced or no glow mods. Of course, I much prefer to create my own mesh enabled no-glow by using a 0-effect bump map to suppress gloss maps. As far as I am aware, bump trumps gloss. Permanent no-glow without an esp, baked into the Nif!

That clears up a lot of things that were still blurry in my mind! I had no idea the environment map was attached to a light. I have attached a few env maps to nifs, but I was completely unaware they worked differently than other textures. I just followed a few nifskope tutorials or used the official exporter to get the effect, without really understanding how it worked from a technical perspective. Also thanks to your explanation I finally understand how the enchantment effect really works :trophy: And I had heard about a way to edit nifs to disable the plastic shrink wrap effect, but again had no idea how it was achieved.
That was a very helpful post! Thank you very much Symon :foodndrink: Hopefully all the posts people wrote here to answer my questions will be useful to other people and not just to me! I think I'm done with questions for now

Just think envr = what lighting is around you. I.E. the day night cycles. candles, torches and even spell effects are are lights. So as you move or the light moves that what it's all about.

The effects in directx, environment-mapped reflection bump mapping, EMBM, that is the bump map method Morrowind uses. It is supposed to look shiny. It is not a bug, it is a feature. We need dot3 bump mapping for real bump mapping, it is in directx 8. I don't think EMBM will ever give the results we are looking for. :/

I want to give some examples for possible content:

For specular mapping,
road signs, letters can use this. Paint, hair, skin, metal, plastic are possible candidates. Must be used carefully not abused.

For environment-mapped reflection bump mapping, EMBM(comes with dx6),
ice, water, metal, glass. It is hard to find a good use for this effect.

For reflection mapping(one of the early achievements in CG),
enchanted items, I must be the only one that likes this effect. It is still in use, Bioshock uses it extensively. You must be http://www.debevec.org/ReflectionMapping/ to find a smart way to use it though.

I remember reading somewhere, that Morrowind is creating an automatic reflection map texture which is updated in real time(so so), you access it with a special name. Unfortunately I can't remember where I read it. Anybody knows about this? I think it is the same map that is used for shaded water effects.

Does it really work? I'd really like to see an example, maybe a physiqued upper body armor that'd work like that. Maybe you can make something small and simple, like a medallion or something, rigged to an upperbody bone, with the above-described technique.

@Mandamus: honestly, I wouldn't get too excited about the whole subject. Vtastek resumed very well what can be done and what cannot - that's pretty much what you have "in hand" right now. You see, these conclusions were drawn over the past 2 years or so in multiple threads after endless discussions... However, besides the Russians' (IE. HH-12) bumped meshes, I've only seen some palpable results from Phijama's research (a couple of years ago, he was playing with different channel colours in the normal maps, for instance, and obtained partially bumped surfaces) and Hrnchamd's tests - and that's about it...

Don't worry, I'm not too excited about all that- I know that we are very limited with what we can do with bump maps, I just asked so many questions because I really wanted to understand all the details (until now it was all blurry and confusing). That way I won't try something impossible to finish in the future. The only thing that I find really frustrating is that whole problem with skinned body parts... and I hope someone will find a way around it, but as you said people have been trying for years with no success, and I'm not really holding my breath. Hrnchamd said at one point that he could possibly fix that, and I really hope he will, but until then... maybe we'll have to wait for a new engine to be released to get past all these problems! ^_^

The big change is that gloss maps were culled by the Morrowind engine. With the code patch, this culling can be disabled.

I don't under codes I'm a texture geek. Can you simplify what you mean? And give everyday type language please?