Reflection/Bump maps in Morrowind : III

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:58 am

I recently downloaded the forgotten shields mod by Painkiller_Rider and was blown away by his use of reflection maps to make the shields have a bump map effect. I tried to replicate the effect using nifskope, but I have had no success. Is it possible to achieve with only nifkskope (and gimp/photoshop)? Do I need to use Max or blender? Any help is much appreciated.

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:05 am

In addition to above post, I am wondering what's the impact of Morrowind Code Patch on bump maps.

Pics please or it didn't happen.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:41 am

I recently downloaded the forgotten shields mod by Painkiller_Rider and was blown away by his use of reflection maps to make the shields have a bump map effect. I tried to replicate the effect using nifskope, but I have had no success. Is it possible to achieve with only nifkskope (and gimp/photoshop)? Do I need to use Max or blender? Any help is much appreciated.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1009286&hl=

That might be the ticket.

And yes all you need is a model, PS, and Nifskope.

» Fri May 27, 2011 5:19 am

I am wondering what's the impact of Morrowind Code Patch on bump maps

They supposedly allow them to react appropriately to the cell's current lighting conditions. Not much effect on vanilla Morrowind since only a few misc objects and enchanted stuff have reflection maps.

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:13 am

Pretty significant by endgame, when pretty much everything you're wearing is enchanted

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:37 am

Thanks for answers. But I want to see some examples. Old-New stuff would help. Do mods those exist benefits MCP fix or need edits to fully use it?

Which mods can I try?

» Thu May 26, 2011 8:04 pm

Basically. If you have a reflection on an object. it can be bumped also. But you can't bump map without a reflection. the whole games lighting would have to be hacked to get a bump map allone to work. MGE tricks the setting but it's on the distance and it's not a true bump map it's more of an effect too trick the eye. If your going to bump a reflection then use a normal map. As it will work better as the map is looking for values not colors.

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:28 am

Is there any step-by-step style tutorials. The other forum topic was all well and good, but doesn't really help a simpleton like me. I can make a normal map (at least I did for for Oblivion) but I don't understand how I implement it through Nifskope for Morrowind. Sorry if I seem like an idiot, but I'm not really well versed with Nifskope's more advanced functions.

» Thu May 26, 2011 10:43 pm

Is there any step-by-step style tutorials. The other forum topic was all well and good, but doesn't really help a simpleton like me. I can make a normal map (at least I did for for Oblivion) but I don't understand how I implement it through Nifskope for Morrowind. Sorry if I seem like an idiot, but I'm not really well versed with Nifskope's more advanced functions.

The first thing is you need a working knowledge of Nifskope. How strong are you with nifs?

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:42 am

The first thing is you need a working knowledge of Nifskope. How strong are you with nifs?

Eh... I dunno. I just really know how to change textures on them. I know what I'm looking at doing involves "Nitextureeffect" or something like that. I tried to copy the properties in nifskpope of Painkiller_Rider's meshes, but it didn't work. If I'm dabbling in stuff that is really advanced I might not want to proceed, but I thought I might as well give it a shot.

Also, has anyone tried to make a replacer for all the logical(Shiny Metal) armors in Morrowind with this technique? I know about Hedgehog's "better" armors, but they don't look a thing like the vanilla armors.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:00 am

Eh... I dunno. I just really know how to change textures on them. I know what I'm looking at doing involves "Nitextureeffect" or something like that. I tried to copy the properties in nifskpope of Painkiller_Rider's meshes, but it didn't work. If I'm dabbling in stuff that is really advanced I might not want to proceed, but I thought I might as well give it a shot.

Also, has anyone tried to make a replacer for all the logical(Shiny Metal) armors in Morrowind with this technique? I know about Hedgehog's "better" armors, but they don't look a thing like the vanilla armors.

If you go in with the mind set that you will fail then of course you'll never be able to do it. Think in simple terms. List what your good at in nifskope. Then see what the next step will be. Read the tut's about textures effect and write back what you think it means. We'll do this one small step at a time. :foodndrink:

» Thu May 26, 2011 9:10 pm

Allright,
I'm capable in all basic retexturing and mesh removal/swapping.
I have had more success in Oblivion(with bumpmap type effects) due to the ease of use when dealing with normal maps.
I have had no problem making things for morrowind that don't involve making new meshes or using texture effects.

Examples of what I've made for Oblivion are:
Proof of Concept for Material-based armors (Steel textures on Ebony Mesh with Ebony normal map)
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6138/proofofconceptsteel1.png

Silver Armor (various vanilla meshes with custom textures and custom normal maps)
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7435/silverarmor.png

I am having trouble finding the tutorials for the texture effect function; Know where one might be?

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:06 am

Allright,
I'm capable in all basic retexturing and mesh removal/swapping.
I have had more success in Oblivion(with bumpmap type effects) due to the ease of use when dealing with normal maps.
I have had no problem making things for morrowind that don't involve making new meshes or using texture effects.

Examples of what I've made for Oblivion are:
Proof of Concept for Material-based armors (Steel textures on Ebony Mesh with Ebony normal map)
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6138/proofofconceptsteel1.png

Silver Armor (various vanilla meshes with custom textures and custom normal maps)
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7435/silverarmor.png

I am having trouble finding the tutorials for the texture effect function; Know where one might be?

Looks good.

Look up NiTextureEffect .... environment map. Read up on it and let me know what you think it means.

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:21 am

Continue here

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1077691&st=0&p=15688389&#entry15688389

» Thu May 26, 2011 8:30 pm

Why to guess? Bump maps used in MW/NetImmerse are nicely described in available official NDL docs for MaxImmerse (Max nif exporter).
Other modern maps (normals, parallax, etc.) in official Emergent video tutorials:

http://www.gamebryo101.com/learn-gamebryo/gamebryo-tv

» Thu May 26, 2011 7:26 pm

In addition to above post, I am wondering what's the impact of Morrowind Code Patch on bump maps.

Pics please or it didn't happen.

Can I SEE something NEW in-game benefits MCP's bump map fix. I feel like I'm missing all the fun. <_<

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:43 am

Why to guess? Bump maps used in MW/NetImmerse are nicely described in available official NDL docs for MaxImmerse (Max nif exporter).
Other modern maps (normals, parallax, etc.) in official Emergent video tutorials:

http://www.gamebryo101.com/learn-gamebryo/gamebryo-tv

Morrowind is hard coded. So it can't use bumps the normal way. It needs to go thru the envmap map (reflect) and be attached that way. it's coded that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

» Fri May 27, 2011 5:34 am

"Normal way" of using/creating MW/NetImmerse bump maps is described in NDL MaxImmerse docs. TES Max exporter does not properly export these maps but MaxImmerse and FF Max exporter do (both are also as MW for nif 4.0.0.2 format). Bump maps are "hardcoded" in the same way as other maps e.g. diffuse/base maps/textures. They different only in the sense that they need special "endogenous" light source ? NiTextureEffect.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:34 am

"Normal way" of using/creating MW/NetImmerse bump maps is described in NDL MaxImmerse docs. TES Max exporter does not properly export these maps but MaxImmerse and FF Max exporter do (both are also as MW for nif 4.0.0.2 format). Bump maps are "hardcoded" in the same way as other maps e.g. diffuse/base maps/textures. They different only in the sense that they need special "endogenous" light source ? NiTextureEffect.

What are you in high school. Just prove yourself right and do it. Talk is cheap.

» Thu May 26, 2011 7:16 pm

Aha, personal offensive is expensive.

But, MW is based on modified MaxImmerse 4.1 and we do not know a lot about these modifications. For unclear to me reasons community modders do not like to read MaxImmerse/NetImmerse/Gamebryo/LightSpeed docs. I am not an artist or game designer. Therefore, I think that if more members with different modding expertise could study these materials the better might be chances to discover something new and usable for all of us.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:14 am

Aha, personal offensive is expensive.

But, MW is based on modified MaxImmerse 4.1 and we do not know a lot about these modifications. For unclear to me reasons community modders do not like to read MaxImmerse/NetImmerse/Gamebryo/LightSpeed docs. I am not an artist or game designer. Therefore, I think that if more members with different modding expertise could study these materials the better might be chances to discover something new and usable for all of us.

So in other words you can't do it. Everything you quoted just proves what I've been saying. P.M. If you wish.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:21 am

So in other words you can't do it. Everything you quoted just proves what I've been saying. P.M. If you wish.

Me and PK (with ome help from other modders) are working on something quite new definitely unused in MW. More on that later, completely only .nif related, no mge stuff...

Let there be. light

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:12 am

Me and PK (with ome help from other modders) are working on something quite new definitely unused in MW. More on that later, completely only .nif related, no mge stuff...

Let there be. light

He's been trying to get into the light cues of the game for awhile now. Where do you think I learned all this. :foodndrink:

I hope you guys crack it.

» Thu May 26, 2011 8:39 pm

Well, I am modding MW for fun, when I have time, and what is interesting for me. Being a bad texturer I am not that interested in any mapping.
FYI: I have discovered MW bump maps independently from Russians (I have found their tutorials and mods later) using CivIV Max exporter and MaxImmerse instructions, and of cause NifScope.
Only Vality7 and Symon69 were interested in my bump posts on the MW TESCS Forum at that time (Jan, 2008).

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:58 am

Well, I am modding MW for fun, when I have time, and what is interesting for me. Being a bad texturer I am not that interested in any mapping.
FYI: I have discovered MW bump maps independently from Russians (I have found their tutorials and mods later) using CivIV Max exporter and MaxImmerse instructions, and of cause NifScope.
Only Vality7 and Symon69 were interested in my bump posts on the MW TESCS Forum at that time (Jan, 2008).

I'm not a texturer nor modeler, but I'm very interested. For fun maybe you can do a demonstration.

I did some google:
From resume of J. Scott Hoffman
http://cougar.kniggets.org/resume.html

Worked on the transition of Morrowind to version 4.0 of NDL's NetImmerse game engine
Beta-tested and debugged NetImmerse's DirectX 8 and Xbox renderer libraries
Researched the addition of DirectX 8- and Xbox-specific effects to Morrowind
per-pixel lighting, bump, environment, and normal mapping, water effects

I wanna ask which bump-normal mapping and per-pixel lighting?

You know if there is a shader for per-pixel lighting, that shader can be extended into full-blown unified lighting shader, some 5000 lines of shader work and we present you next-gen Morrowind.