Well, it looks like it is going to be "lame."



It is totally unrealistic (and it removes a major TES RPG element). In real life we don't all start out the same . . . every person has inherent strengths and weaknesses. And Skyrim leaves that out. In real life, not every person is naturally gifted in music, or in athletic abilities . . . we all have unique differences, even from a very early age. Plus, as I'm personally all too aware of, there are birth defects and injuries that can result in disabilities (which each come with their own strengths and weaknesses). In the beginning of the game, your character is an advlt (like 20 years old or more) . . . so they would have 20 years worth of experience . . . presumingly 20 unique years of experience . . . so they should have some learned skills, along with innate abilities (they should be better than average at some things and worse than average at other things)


No it isn't. My character always started out a bit different and I NEVER maxed out all my skills in MW or in OB (or in FO3).


How am I "overblowing" the FAST leveling? Todd stated that Skyrim's leveling speed would be a LOT faster than Oblinion's leveling speed . . . because "leveling up is fun."

That doesn't mean anything.
Just because you didn't do that that doesn't mean it's impossible...

So level 50 now will mean the same thing as level 20 before...

You know, they haven't mentioned anything about how often your skills are going to raise, they've only said you're going to level up faster, so one skillraise will affect your overall level much more than before.
So you get to level 50 the same speed as you did get to level 20, but your skills are going to be the same...

Not to mention you can easily max out your character under a year in nearly every game, including Morrowind and Oblivion.

Skyrim does not pretend to capture all aspects of real-life people that distinguish one person from another. By having all characters start out the same, Skyrim is not suggesting that all real world people start out the same. That would be a very flat-footed and crude interpretation of what Skyrim's character creation process is doing. Rather, Skyrim's character creation process is saying that all characters start out the same with respect to those abilities relevant to the game. If you look at it that way, then the point made by TheGuildmaster and me becomes much more reasonable. It's simply that that from among the stats that Skyrim includes one could plausibly think of their baseline values as reflecting the abilities of the average commoner.

(Different races start out with different skills, presumably. But I take it you might still say that different people from a single race might have different abilities. So racial differences can be put aside in this debate, I think).

Race : Altmer ( not my primary concern, but they have an innate ability to absorb any magical training )

Gender : Female ( It's a role playing game, I'm going to play a woman )

Class : Middle. ( She thinks a decent living can be made in the healing and alchemist trades. )

Birthsign : Thief. ( Might be lucky, might not. She's a bit impetuous. )

Skills : None really, but understands principles of spellcasting.

Education : Basic training in magic, as befits a middle class Altmer.

Experience : About to start gaining some. No point staying at home forever. That would get dull.

Second character : Nord. Farmer. Dispossessed and destitute. Will steal or kill to fill belly.

The problem for me is that I could mess up on my character build and choices, meaning deserved limitations. I could do the same with an older, more experienced character, but at the end of the day, that would just give me some initial bonuses, and no real penalties, after all, every skill is levellable, it's not like it's a party based game, where strict characters classes with tightly defined skills are desirable. There are 18 skills,a large enough range of perks to choose from, and I welcome the opportunity to have my character totally shaped by in game choices. Add in a bunch of equipment options, sounds like a recipe for an rpg.

Haven't played the game, only seen a a glimpse of the world, haven't seen the equations that govern how much higher and lower skills contribute to levelling, so saying I knew how I was going to progress would be a bit daft.

It means something to me.
Besides, just because the Oblivion's character build / leveling system wasn't perfect, doesn't justify just throwing it out. Fallout 3's system was much better than OB . . . so all Beth had to do was incorporate FO3's improvements (and improve them a bit more) and they would have ended up with a system that would have come a lot closer to pleasing everyone (in my opinion).


Perks are just skill bonuses, they are not skills.
From the end of April interview. This is what Todd stated:

Ironically you couldn't max out everything in Fallout 3 because there was a limitation at the end, a level cap.

You could get pretty close to it though...

What does this have to do with perks, I haven't even mentioned them...

And I've based it on that statement.
You get levels faster, but you don't get skills faster...

First of all, there are still 134 days until the release. Yes, this time will probably be spent polishing the game and making sure there are no bugs, but for all we know, they could be fine-tuning the character customization system as well.

If the customization system does end up as an "everyone starts off equal" sort of thing, there are several ways you can change this.
1. Install a mod that improves the system from the get-go.
2. Use console commands and edit in bonuses, and make up a plausible story-related reason why it is so.
3. Immediately after leaving the prison, live as a commoner (or whatever class you wish to roleplay as)-- this will set your "innate skills." You can pretend like you never
were in prison, or you can have yourself imprisoned again, or any number of different scenarios to justify it.

Or, you could

4. Just take what the system gives you, acknowledge that the game systems won't always reflect the innate skills and qualities developed by people in real life, and enjoy the game.

You could also argue the Prisonborn standpoint-- you were taken as a child and raised in, say, a Nordic community compound until you were of legal age, and then you were imprisoned for the crimes of your parents or whatnot. Who knows what happened exactly, but it ended up with you (and other prisoners from other peoples' Skyrim games) to all have equal abilities (not counting race bonuses) because of your identical conditioning in the community you were raised in.

We won't find out for sure how it is until the game comes out, but when it does, lets hope it's great. It will be great, because it's the Elder Scrolls. If it's not perfect, well, see # 1-4 for dealing with this. :thumbsup:

:tes: :wub:

You would still have associated skills. If your a squire you would still know basic sword play and equipment care, an apprentice would still know basic spellcraft and potion making. The downside being you would know nothing about anything else.



There innovation and then there is shameless profiteering dressed up as innovation. It's getting to the point where every damn video game is either like WoW or Halo. It's gone beyond frustrating and now it's just depressing.



My good sir, a PC is no commoner. A PC kills commoners and takes their stuff.

Bosmer? Those bloody cannibalistic scums. They are 5th on my "Tamriel genocide" list


I don't actually care about choosing starting class.
Class is not about who you were, it is about who you are.
It would be better if class would be adaptive (depending on your skills and their usage- based on 3 best developed and most often used skills)
One example of morphing class
Two hand skill (with HtH specialization)+Restoration+Unarmored (if it is in) = Monk
Restoration+One hand (dagger specialization)+Light Armor= Field Medic
One hand (dagger specialization)+Sneak+Light Armor= Assassin
Sneak+Security+Mercantile= Thief
Security+Mercantile+Speechcraft= Merchant
Mercantile+Speechcraft+Illusion= Diplomat
Speechcraft+Illusion+Alteration= Illusionist
Illusion+Alteration+Destruction= Shadow Mage
Alteration+Destruction+Conjuration= Sorcerer
Destruction+Conjuration+Heavy Armor= War Mage
Conjuration+Heavy Armor+Block= Commander
Heavy Armor+Block+Two Hands(greatsword specialization)= Heavy Warrior
Block+Two Hands(greatsword specialization)+
Ok, I'm out of ideas, but I hope you get main idea


But starting with same skills is bad idea.
Picking specialization skills should be in.
Picking traits (optional, because every new player screw up character, according to Tod)
Buying starting equipment (that you get back after execution is canceled)
And other similar things, that allows to create unique character from generic clone we get in the beginning

Bukee, read what Todd stated, then read what your previous post's comment about leveling speed.

If you refuse to acknowledge what others here have posted over and over again, there is no need for me to respond to your replies any more.

Again, he never said anything about how fast you gain skills.

... oh well, then I just assume too much. Logic has no place here :bonk:

Apparently, your character is expected to be young enough to have a well-rounded education in his culture's skills (Racial skill boost), but not experienced enough to do anything spectacular.

"Apprentice"-level skill is ~ the proficiency demonstrated in a skill by someone with a two-year College Degree in it.

And what about miscelaneous skills, such as reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic?

Skyrim reminds me more of the "GURPS" character creation and development than "Dungeons & Dragons" now.

My character was a skilled in Illusion, conjuration, alteration, enchanting, smithing, and blade combat.

He was in prison for several years, his skills atrophied. He will have to re-learn some of his skill, but luckily his muscle memory will allow his to progress quite quickly.

When I role this character he will only use these skills. The fact that he can use all skills at the same efficiency at the start game is merely the construct of the games rules, and ultimately irrelevant by endgame. It's my job as a role player to look beyond those confines and shape an accurate story according to my character.

Ultimately, for people who have no idea what there character will be, this system is great.
For people who have crafted character and classes for these characters, the system does not interfere.

I see what you did there...

This is how I played Oblivion: As I went through the tutorial I grew more familiar with the game. I figured out what each skill did and what each attribute did (for the most part). When it came to the decision of my class I obviously did the smart thing and created my own custom class. I had in mind of a thief/assassin player so I chose skills according to the classic image of what a thief/assassin might be. After leaving the sewers I went through the game growing those skills and getting the best equipment in order to create the greatest character of my class. I beat the game and did it again with multiple characters of different classes and tried to make the best out of each that I could. I NEVER chose a pre-made class in which I would role play based on that character's stats. In fact, I hardly ever role played besides doing the obvious thing like steal from houses. Even though I was an assassin, I never assassinated any NPCs.

Now with Skyrim, everything is better without classes. I can decide in my mind what kind of character I will aim for and I will train those skills accordingly. I don't have to decide on my future at a point of no return. To me that really opens up my choices in how I run my character. I might want to drop a skill and pick up another, and I don't have to pick 7 skills that determine my speed of leveling.

I know that there are others who play the game like I do and they all love this new direction. I can also see how those who role play and actually care about the things that DON'T affect gameplay (who was my character blah blah blah) don't like this new direction. I really think all of these threads are pointless because those who role play aren't used to this style and are going to need some creativity rather than just looking at some numbers.

mirite or mirite?

Good. D and D has severely restricted classes ( at least it started that way, then everyone complained, and they introduced feats and hobby skills and whatnot ) because it's a party game. Your fighter can never pick a lock, but that's fine, because he knows a thief. The entire point is total restriction, so that each party member gets to 'do their bit'.

Except... Wizards ended up being able to do everything better than everyone else combined... Except maybe the Cleric and Druid.

And that never changes, DA:O I am looking at you.

Actually, DnD wizards were severely limited by the fact a Halfling villager with a pointy stick could kill one in a single hit at level 1, and the HP situation never really improved.

It's amazing how long this thread went when it could've stopped with my post. I know everyone here skips posts and only looks to see if somebody quoted theirs so they can get into an argument or discussion, but it's getting ridiculous.

Everybody: s l o w d o w n

It remains to be seen whether or not you can kill a competent armored and armed opponent regardless of your own competence. Also, there is nothing outrageous about being able to kill an opponent who is just as unskilled as you.

We will probably gain decent proficiency in our primary skills soon enough that our early lack of proficiency becomes insignificant. We will be more proficient in some skills and not only less proficient in others, but limited in them too.

And more importantly, don't lose any sleep over what may or may not be in a game. That would be really silly. There aren't any initial classes. For good or for ill. Either plan your class mods, get used to it, or vote with your wallet.

Naw, there's ways around that. Especially if you play a gish.

Hear, hear.

Now would be the time to admit that while I have loads of PnPs I still play, I haven't actually played ADnD since 1987, but that doesn't impact the points I was making about party based games.

With Raidiant story atleast offering a modicum of dynamics never seen before in any TES game ever, that is the game actually acknowledging the character and its actions, I see there far more potential to make classes more than just a Label and what skills contribute to leveling and what skills get boosts, not to mention crafting skills? smithing? is that not a class? a Smith? or what Ima guy that can smith and swing a sword but don't call me a Smith.

things to note

Major/Minors are gone, that "restrictive" element is gone, Classes I.E are no longer restrictive, I find it HILARIOUS that people are calling Classes Labels, and then turn around and call them restrictive, Cognitive dissonance much?

All skills now contribute to leveling, and by the almighty words of Todds they level faster than Oblivion, look at Arwens previous posts she gives a decent qoute, and if your going to argue against that then your simply another case of a person only accepting facts when it is favorable to you.

and reinterating what RS could do regards to character interactions, whos your friend whos your foe, what random encounters you come across and how NPC's address and act towards you.


Get this assed notion that classes are there for the players only, IT EFFECTS THE GAME or rather COULD EFFECT the game at this point. I don't need the PR salesmen jargon about how you "grow into your character" or whatever, Todd said the player is captured by Imperials crossing into Skyrim, not at birth, not at old age, you will not start as a child your character was already doing something before they were captured, and a whole plethorum of circumstances as to why your character was crossing to Skyrim, and might I add thats no simple feat.


As it Stands it could be made if you don't want to be "labeled" you can ignore being classed, but atleast give the option for those who want it because the potential to make it better, like so many other cut aspects of TES so far is much to great.


Mods as it stands makes all of no sense, if you have no class then theres a chance NPC's won't either as far as hard editiable variables in the CS are concerned.