In a way, skills are your class. Perks allow you to be as good as an individual can be in a class or with a skill. The limit on selectable perks ensures permanent limits on your abilities.

I'm not sure I followed all of that, but there's at least one thing implicit in there that's worth emphasising more. And that is that classes, as they appeared in previous games, played a bunch of distinct roles. It's worth being clear on how those roles are distinct, because some reasons for having (or not having) classes are arguments for just one of those roles, and not any of the others.

I can see at least these roles for classes in previous TES games (there are probably more):

1. A label for your character (Warrior, Sorceror, Monk, Assassin, etc.)
2. Initial abilities.
3. Determines which skills contribute towards leveling up.

I don't think a lot of importance should be attached to (1).

Skyrim replicates (3) to some extent, by having higher valued skills contributing more towards leveling up. It's not quite the same as the binary system of previous games (either a skill contributes or it doesn't). Perhaps one thing to say in favour of the new system is that the more fine-grained method allows for differences among your "major" and "minor" skills. In Oblivion, for instance, a 90 rated Blade skill contributed the same towards leveling up as a 60 rated Destruction skill, if both were major (or both were minor - nothing at all).

(2) is undoubtedly what most people are worried about.

In any event, the main point is that an argument for having a label for your character is not an argument for having only some skills contribute towards leveling, nor is it an argument for having an initial boost to some abilities. Similarly, an argument for having an initial boost to some abilities is not an argument for having a label for your character, nor is it an argument for having only some skills contribute towards leveling. Finally, an argument for having only some skills contribute towards leveling is not an argument for having a label for your character, nor is it an argument for having an initial boost to some abilities. These are independent aspects of classes.

As for the possibilities you mentioned with Radiant Story: I'm not sure what the argument here is. What role would classes play with Radiant Story? Let's go through the three roles of classes. On (1): Radiant Story tracks your character's history and abilities and gives your character a label; or, given the label you started with, it tailors content to that label. I can see the first as being a nice little cosmetic touch; the second is a bit clunky, for it seems better to tailor content to your character's history and abilities, rather than an overarching label. On (2): Radiant Story tailors content not only to your character's current abilities, but also to how your character's abilities have changed over the course of the game. This seems like an interesting possibility. You might think that it would be interesting if two characters, both of whom have the same skills at level 40, were treated differently by Radiant Story because they started out with quite different abilities. But I'm not sure what sorts of differences between content this should give rise to. On (3): Radiant Story tailors content based on which skills contribute towards leveling up. But Skyrim already has some scope for this, for Radiant Story can simply tailor content to those skills that contribute more towards leveling up. This would produce different results from a major/minor skills system, for higher rated skills are not necessarily major skills. But the basic workings are the same.

cool story,bro

You always go on how classes could be used for Radiant story but you never actually go into any examples.
Really, what can they do that you couldn't do with just looking up which skills you're good at?

As for making them "optional" just wouldn't work. So normally you could just start out as a nobody, but you could also choose a class from a list, and it has to be a list, as a custom class couldn't add detail to the Radiant Story elements you're presuming.
So they get less content just because they want to play differently? That's really bad design.

Todd says the player character levels faster, not the skills increase faster. The contribution of skill increases is dynamic, so until we try it out, we have no idea how many skill increases it takes to gain a level. Maybe that is the cause of the misunderstanding. If it were still 10 skills a level, yes it would mean skills level faster, but it isn't. All 18 skills have some contribution to levelling. So if they rose even slower than OB, you could still possibly level up more quickly. Why are some of us arguing about this?

Radiant story from whats been told effects more than enemy placement, it effects who gives what, says when and is where, RS use to govern either the MQ or Sidequests, as what I stated prior, about who, what, when and where. in that it could be taken many leagues further, it could determine what random encounters the character recieves based on their class, what factions are favorable to the player and what are not, Druid could be on good terms with the Giants while a witch hunter could be their arch enemies, its all about things ALREADY HAPPENING before the Character step foot in the world.


as It stands this is essentially another case of the World revolving around the player, the whole make your char as you go and the game will taylor what it throws at you comes off as just that. I personally rather my character having to adapt to the new world not essentially moving mountains from mere footsteps.


Buukens


Alright you speak of just looking up skills, I've a Nightblade, an Assassin and a Theif, all good in sneak, Bows, and maybe illusion spells. hypothetically speaking what exactly is the difference between them now if they were just highlighted by Skills?....why not just call them a magical theif? ah wait an Assassin is probably hired, potentially a Dark brotherhood. the nightblade is probably apart of Synod (not confirmed in I said hypothetically) and the theif is in of course the thieves guild.


now you will say ok they are in seperate guilds there you go, and Im saying a Nightblade doesnt do what an Assassin does what a theif does they play differently but how exactly is the game going to realize that just looking at their skills? as for the optional bit, the last time you addressed this proposal I said, ignoring pre classes and just playing the game = custom classes, the classes would serve to switch up how the world relates to the player per game.



and how exactly is this cutting content? thats like saying I joined the theives guild who pissed off the mages guild, so i can't join, im losing content :confused:

Do all skills contribute to growth equally?
Because few months ago I proposed system based on TES3 major/minor/misc skill system where all skills contributed to level, but at different rate.
It could be that we still need to pick 6 main skills that contribute more to levels, then other 12 skills

Because if level up will occur after each 10 skill increase and all skills have same impact, that will be 150+ level ups (and that's a lot- I like it, but I don't expect from developers to do such thing)

Not really... they do play in a very similar fashion...

And it's not like there are special jobs that only Nightblades can do. Or even there are they are the easiest to spot from skills...

There are a couple of things to say about this:

1. You give an example where a class label serves as a tiebreaker between characters with the same skills (let's put faction differences aside). But how would class labels work when characters have quite different skills? How do these factors weigh up? Is the suggestion that class labels have negligible influence, and so only make a difference when serving as a tiebreaker? Or are you thinking that class labels can in some circumstances trump your character's skills? For instance, take two Thieves with different skills. Are you thinking that if the differences between their skills are sufficiently minor, then Radiant Story treats them equivalently since both are Thieves?

2. There's also an issue here of just how fine-grained Radiant Story can go when tailoring content to your character. It seems like what you have in mind is that Radiant Story will be able to give you slightly different content for characters with identical skills but subtly different playstyles. But there's no guarantee of that. Radiant Story might be much more coarse-grained. It might be limited to a small handful of alternatives in any given case: there's a couple of warrior options, a couple of mage options, a couple of thief options. In that case, there's no scope for your Assassin, Thief, and Nightblade to get different content.

Your the one picking out parts of his quotes that are favorable to your argument and ignoring the rest.

Unless this is now very different than what I understand, faster leveling equals faster skill increases (or the XPR points have been raised considerably). Oblivion had 21 skills, and they ALL contributed to leveling up; but at different rates (the strength and weakness part of Major, Minors, and Specialization).

Take note that Im not searching for sweeping differences, but if beth is going to promote the statment that no two games will play alike, then I do not see the difficulty with the Tool that is RS, its not news that RS changes missions and makes them on the fly, who gives what, and how. Im proposing that the Classes effect how the player is percieved in the world so that we don't have things like a Mage with literally no thief skills walking in the thieves guild is treated like a thief.

MIND you there is absolutely nothing wrong with a mage using illusion magic to act as a theif, but when they have next to nothing in stealth skills and they are in the thieves guild being treated as a thief does that not strike odd? take what Im saying more along the lines of preset positions where in the beginning of the game, you pick a class and a history....ok thats pushing it, just a class and it determines with varience, who's friend, who's foe and what happens to the character, with regards to two thieves with varience in skills thats my point, with literally all skills being leveled to 100(stated by todd for skyrim) what would be the difference? which is why I don't think it should strictly look at skills because...who the heck knows your skills yeah? and before anyone says the same for classes, I say yes I know which is why I tried to say pick history, but for me personally I rather a Dynamic game than one that metagames your playstyle leaving that Dyanmic up to the player to initiate.


lol what are you trying to argue with me for now Worm....no buddy your the one picking out facts favorable to you, I didnt say a glorious damn about LEVELS, I said SKILLS, and in the 1up article Todd says you can switch skills whenever the hell you feel like it, there will be a slow down but not too much and soon enough the rollercoaster skill levleing starts again. kk? thank you, glad to have this talk. and worm. check Arwen qouting zens statements about levels leveling faster than skills,
case and point.

I have a bad feeling that RS will be nothing more than an idiot proof-er when/if you kill essentials.

Bottom line, classes didn't mean jack-[censored] in either Morrowind or Oblivion. Your character could be anything you wanted to, even if you choose the class stats for a straight mage. People respond to this by saying, "Well if you have the discipline, then you could be a straight mage", and this is true. So why can't you same people just use your "discipline" and roleplay and imagine a back story, since alot of you are arguing this point towards the role playing point of view.

I'm saying lets change that, you know...change, the thing people keep saying "complainers" are afraid off? when infact nothing is being changed for the better....just another hint of what could be, being removed not fixed.

Well, I'm late to the frey, so it's probably already said...

Can't you create your own role to play? Your own backstory? Isn't that role-playing as well?

edited silly remark

I get the concerns of the whole class-less thing, but I disagree and here's why...

The beginning of the game essentially starts your quest. Story begins... If you see a dagger on the ground, you pick it up. I'd pick it up. Especially with wolves and all manner of mysterious beasts out there. You better defend yourself. If you want to play a pure mage, a thief, a warrior, or even a combination of all three --- you still pick up that knife. Just because you're not skilled with a blade, the realism is in that you adapt to what gets thrown at you. Just like real like... WITH DRAGONS!

You said it yourself, if a mage enters the thieves guild with no thief skills, he shouldn't be treated like one. Why do you need classes for that? Just look at the skills, that's it.
And you could get 100 in everything with classes before too, nothing stopped you in this.
And if you get 100 at everything your class skills hardly matter then, you are equally good at everything. If a mage suddenly gets thief skills, why shouldn't he be treated like a thief then?

Yeah, these are not classes you are describing, but set backgrounds...


You know it's kinda sad when consequence to some people mean "this character is dead, and no other NPC will react to it. Their shop will be forever open and empty, untouched. They never had a heir, even if they had a family they don't grieve"...
Somebody else taking over the shop is purely for the noobs to have a different essential system, in a true hardcoe RPG when the quest giver dies outside the quest boundaries, the quest is over, they should never be dynamic! :bonk:

Classes did mean something in previous TES games, and they were more than just labels . . . they just didn't go far enough (in my opinion) because your inherent strengths and weaknesses became less and less significant the higher you leveled.
From the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages:
"In Morrowind, every humanoid character has a class, including your character and all NPCs. A character's class reflects their occupation, their position in society, or simply what sorts of things they are good at. In game terms, class comprises three different aspects of a character: Specialization, Favored Attributes, and Major/Minor Skills. Together, these choices have significant impact on the state of your character at the start of the game, as well as how they will develop as they increase in level."
"In Oblivion, a class is a combination of a specialization (Combat, Magic or Stealth), favored attributes, and major skills. Your character's class determines what skills you will be most proficient in, and this in turn affects how you level."



A classless system removes initial strengths and weaknesses from the player character. So in order to "create your own role to play", you would have to put in constant effort to make your role work with the game's lack of character differentiation. A RPG should make it easy to role play your character, not harder. For me, the harder I have to work to role play (because of the game's mechanics) , the poorer I rate the RPG.

I understand what you're saying; we just see differently about the "difficulty"

Just read your previous reply about the game's character creation points pool and being "lame". The quote you cited has nearly put the final nail in the coffin for me regarding this game. Becoming way too much of a video game....but that's a different thread

Wait, Classes = RPG? Since when? Did they change the definition of Role Playing in the dictionary? How dare they!

I just like a RPG that works with my imagination, instead of making me fight the game's mechanics, in what type of character I want to role play. Morrowind made this easy for me. Oblivion took a LOT of mods before I had this part working right. (in Fallout 3 I fixed this by learning how to mod). So I still have hope that I'll be able to mod what I need back into Skyrim (but the removal of most of the attributes are going to make this quite challenging).


I was EXTREMELY excited when I first heard that Skyrim was the next TES RPG. But the more that I learn about the changes, the less excited I have become. I was hoping that E3 would make me excited again, but the opposite happened.

=================================================


No. Classes = TES.

I look at it this way:
In the past games, when I wanted to roleplay as my own character I usually made my own class. Now, then I'd have to restrict myself to what skills I could fit into these classes. This was always a total pain and I never got to do -exactly- what I wanted. In Skyrim I won't have to worry about classes, I can just use what skills I need/want and level up from all of them instead of just the ones I picked at the start of the game.

@Arwen

Why do you assume that you'll have to fight the game mechanics to be who you want to be in Skyrim? If you roleplay as a warrior that uses maces only, then use just maces. I don't see how this can limit your role playing, nor do I see any indication that you'll have to fight the game mechanics to get exactly what you want.

And classes don't hinder my role playing at all, they're just a label. My Nord is still a warrior, he just doesn't have the label telling him so.

No. That's not why they changed the classes. For new players, it's hard to understand what skills are good and choosing a class really restricts you. Most people redo their characters at least once after going through the first few quests. With this system, you aren't doomed to failure just by choosing the wrong major classes or choosing the wrong birthsign.