But Major and minor skills (the reason people restarted their games) and level scaling (what made BAD choices possible) are gone..so..why are classes gone too? and yes he has a point, all this does is ensure there are no drawbacks, no "you have to live with your descision" deals if you don't like what your doing you can switch builds, forget the fact that in RP terms your character was warrior for 15 years, nah once he gets magick in his hands its like he's been doing it all his life, ala Oblivion. atleast in morrowind you FAILED when you tried that, and with time you got better.

this doesnt remove restrictions where there was none, this does not increase rp oppertunities, you guys are seeing choices that dont matter/ don't exist. all thats here is things being made easy....that it :shrug: they could have done so much more.

thts a load of bull in oblivions case. the only skill that you had to pick if you wanted to be able lvl up was sneak. every other skill was just as easy to lvl up as the others if not picked as majors, that was part of the reason why ppl would pick skills they knew they would never lvl up to become god like players. Classes were literally just a label for those who wanted to roleplay, as for anybody else skyrim will be pretty much the same thing as oblivion cause whatever skill you want to be good at, just use it.

in morrowinds case yes you are right but morrowind used dice rolls so its lvling system needed the class system or nobody could kill anything due to high misses.

Hi!
Guess it better thread to put my queston

Sorry if this one was yet.
I have read about only 3 attributes stay. --> mana, health, stamina. These arent attributes!!!
So How the character will be built without speed , strenght?
How Orc will be stronger than human? What will be control speed of charachter's progress?
Or it mean only I hit with sword the enemies and hurray --->hack&slash
What makes a race faster than the other, for example vampires, etc,etc
Or these things will be constans? so system of leveling how will work?
I cant imagine the leveling system can work without these.
Seems it will be a crappy console game?

the end result is more customization, so who cares about useless labels.

I consider my character just like anyother.... until he escapes execution, steals some armor/weapons, fights his way through the wilderness only to get cutoff by a dragon, kills that dragon, climbs 7,000 steps to find out how the heck he managed to kill a dragon, and then, and only then, is he handed any title or power. Its why I love the game

why does it have to be called a crappy console game? not just a crappy game?
to answer your question we dont know yet other than attributes are gone. the 3 you heard are simply to increase your health, mana, and stamina. they have said that the attributes felt redundant in the system they had, so we dont know if that means theres other ways to make a character faster or stronger. but i put money on if anything we can get something like the steed birthsign (its something like doomstones now) that will increase our speed.

Sure i know Oblivion system very well. But your words mean constans thingy. And what do it mean in system of level ? So speed will stay constans?
Iam sure it doesnt possible to make simplify. Or not only classes miss off so races will miss off too. Or Bethesda should speak about these things more
Because i read Tod's answer in this queston but he avoid the theme well. Because inteligence mean not only level of mana but it meant progress of mages's skill(what depend on inteligence)

Um guys.....everyone WON'T start the same.

You can choose your race. This gives you complete cosmetic customization AND an altered starting skill set which HAS been confirmed by Todd Howard.
Races DO affect starting skills. Likelihood is gender will also like previous games.

So....the average Orc will be a powerful warrior and will be same to all other Orc players BUT they will LOOK different obviously.

So...you will have a background that you can RP, because you will have certain increased stats! So you can RP based off those!

On top of that, shortly out of the tutorial you get the first Guardian Stones. So your Warrior, Mage, or Thief skills will increase faster, adding MORE difference between you and the other Orc players out there.

ALSO, everybody will play the tutorial differently so different skills will be increased before escaping the dungeon. Whether you pick up the sword near that pile of bones or the Axe on that guards corpse is YOUR choice, and that will make all the difference in the long run.

By the end of the tutorial, you'll have a hundred completely different little Orcs running around shouting at people.

You guys really need to chill, I would more worried about the perks than the lack of classes, as perks DO change the gameplay, as some do things that normal skill increases do not. The lack of Classes is nothing to worry about neither is the lack of attributes.

Are you still worried now?

Fair enough, read into it whatever you wish. We'll see what's what when the game drops.



Like what, playing the game?



No. Classes = what you love about RPGs
RPG = {insert subjective perception based on experiences}

In order to define TES you need something unique to TES and classes aren't it. I'd wager you fell in love with rolling a character long before picking up a TES game.
And that is what this is about. You love rolling a character and skyrim won't let you do that anymore because it has finally shed the last remnants of D&D leveling it had left and is now a PURE do it to level game. Roll your character by being that character. Your all set anyway right? Just mod it how you want it and don't even bother giving the new system a cursory run through.

TES = Most moddable fantasy game ever.

@Riddike116

Ah, but if you believe what Todd says(some people here don't) then most of the power is in the perks. So you can be good at anything and be great at a few things but you can't be great at everything.

To me, that is a good thing.

I think the inability to become a god makes RP'ing even more indepth than in OB, because now you need to play as your character would play to become what you want to be.

*Waits for someone to complain come point out that not all characters of a certain race and gender should start out the same*

Set classes can be fun for giving ideas for new, inexperienced, or unimaginative players but can be extremely limiting to players such as myself. If anyone has played through Diablo II a few times there are only a few viable builds for each class then things get tricky and/or downright silly. Being able to create your own class is nice (which Bethesda did in both Oblivion and Fallout) and they did it so elegantly by providing suggested classes/builds and an immense level of customization (including starting boosts to stats in the form of primary skills and tag skills respectively). Now i'm assuming Skyrim will be more similar to Oblivion than Fallout so i'm guessing a leveling system that is based on gaining experience for using a skill which I personally find limiting and sometimes difficult but also in some instances fun, such as trying to create an unarmed character... kinda hard early on when everyone else is using a weapon (Oblivion) easy when i get to use a gun and still level unarmed to a reasonable level (fallout) then use it, fallout also introduced unarmed weapons (oxymoron?) which i think make it a more viable build and also more fun as opposed to the stereotypical paralyzing palm. Sorry if i touched on subjects already discussed, 2 pages in to the thread I decided i had the gist of it.

Did you read the rest of my comment?

BY the end of the tutorial every player will be different from one another, unless you are purposely replicating someone else playthrough of the tutorial.
Gender will "most likely" affect skills too, since it did in Oblivion and Races will affect it so it makes sense that Gender does too. That halves the amount of Orc Players that are the same, because some will be female.

How you play is important, and the tutorial will change your character immediately. One dude will blast people with a fireball someone else will weild dual swords. One guy will run around in heavy armor, another dude might run around naked to admire his his female PC's figure. With the Guardian stones and the rest, there is really nothing to worry about.

*sigh* My opinion it wont be rpg no longer. Perk cant substitute attributes. Or Bethseda should forget level system without attributes.
So guys, what you tell to mean only different in look. So between human and ork. Or Bethesda will use racial characteristics?
So we have few information in this queston. They talk about visuality and radiant story only . But a alpha queston in rpg mean character development.
The perk system is in Fallout new vegas too. But it cant substitute attributes. So I hope Fallout series will stay rpg at least.
Although Oblivion was one of my favorite game ever. I dont believe it will be that.
I speak about structure of this world. Not only aboutour charachter. the creatures, races was build to attributes too and not only to system of skills

We're accustomed to the mechanics and rules of TES games and RPGs in general. Bethesda is trying to make the game as accessible as possible and while I guess they COULD have classes, they would be completely arbitrary and a waste of time without some sort of 'major skills and minor skills'. With classes, Skyrim would perhaps be more complicated but not anymore complex. That's why we don't have classes.

The goal is for players to come in, explore a little bit and discover what they want to play as. And do you really need stats and numbers to be able to role-play? Role-playing is about using your imagination. *sigh* Bethesda might as well slap a good-evil morality system and call it a day.

Yes I read your whole comment. It was a joke (not your comment, mine)..because people find a problem with everything around here. Like saying all orc females will start out the same (well the same skills anyway) which was my point. I guess it didn't come across that well lol

Just try it, you might like it.

I disagree, I don't believe a class is necessary in the Elder Scrolls. In other RPGs classes generally mean: if you pick warrior you CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE MAGIC, with ES you've always been able to branch out it just wouldn't have an affect on your leveling. Now it does.

I think you're saying that classes don't matter in Oblivion?

Well, if they don't matter, why have them? For role-playing you say? Isn't role-playing about using your imagination and creating your own backstory? Creating a "class" for your character is actually really "gamey" thing to do.

Won't be an RPG no longer? We are talking about Skyrim right? Just because classes are gone doesn't mean it isn't an RPG. The genre is made up of many different features all or only some of which nee to be included or the game to be called an RPG.

Dragon Age has classes for an OBVIOUS reason, each class has individual skills and abilities, it just makes sense. But if they removed classes and made all skills available to the PC would that make the game more limited? No. It might mess up the game, but that is because it would unbalance the attributes system and mess up the game entirely.

Skyrim, doesn't need classes, it DOES limit the amount a player can do ingame, removing them DOES give you more freedom. Its not a matter of perception its a matter of what is right and whats is wrong. Its how you choose to use the new system that matters. If your a hardcoe player who racks up 300+ hours, then you can bet that within 20 minutes of playing you will be completely your own character. So....whats the problem? You have a base to RP of, there is not problem there either.

Sorry you dont understand my words. I havent problem with this one so classes will miss off as name. My problem is attributes i tell so without attributes this world wont work at least as rpg.
+ there are two atttributes (speed,lucks) what will misss off fully. It is incredible thing me. Although i cant imagine this system without other attributes neither.
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2011/04/18/skyrim-character-creation-guide/
it is simple too me.

Ah, my apologies I see now you were talking about attributes. I'm not sure how I feel about losing attributes.

Attributes were never really needed either. Now when you level up you have the option to put points on Health, Magicka and Fatigue. Thats basically what you were dong with attributes. Strength increased damage right? Well now perks for your specified skill increase damage. Added inventory weight? Perks. Intelligence increase Magicka, now Magicka increases Magicka. Endurance increase Health, now Health increase Health.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED. It has been re-arranged and cleaned up, attributes are transferred to the perks and the new "attributes" Health, Magicka and Fatigue.

EDIT: Luck is the only Attribute that has been scrapped fully. No big loss there.

yes why have them at all? there wasnt any reason to have them in oblivion. you could beat the entire game at lvl 2, in other words there was no point in lvling and if lvling doesnt matter then classes really dont matter. and as another said classes usually represents your role in the game but TES has never made you stick to that role, hints classes arnt needed bc you are what you do not what you plan to do.

another "gamey" thing to do is play the game.

1. WHY are they trying to make it more accessible? last I check Console gamers, PC gamers, have MORE than enough brain processing power to learn the ups and downs of a game :teehee:


2. Yeah Sorry I do, you know...because...its a Game, and I kinda need the game to identify why my CHARACTER in the game is good at, bad at, and what can be improved, what my CHARACTER should be afraid off in relation to the Game, its rules and the NPC's that follow the same Rules. no to RP as in make up stuff in my head no I don't need stats and numbers but at the same time They exist once place, In my head, and only effect one thing, whats in my head, Im playing Skyrim, Thinking my character can levitate and is a pink dagon in disguise doesnt translate into actual Gameplay....so yes I need stats as per the games rules in relation to my characters functioning in ITS world, in addition to all the other NPC's Stats effect as well, not just me.