I was just wondering if there was something in the cannon as to why the various towns in the Wasteland did not join together? So instead of the various city-states, why didn't they try to create a government between the various places, (which might have been beneficial for security and resource reasons)?

I have argued this point in the past, The response I usually get is "because of the mutants" or "because of the radiation", obviously alot more drawn out, but that's essentially what it breaks down into. Naturally, I don't buy any of that. Bethesda just decided to make a 200 year old wasteland as bleak and untouched as if the bombs just dropped only 20 years prior.

I can't rationalise any good reason, and I think any reason that is there (mutants/radiation/etc) is too weak to result in the over the top desolate state of the Capital Wasteland.

Honestly, I think that they would've solved many of the current complaints about the game if they had made the timeline earlier than 200 years after the war. Then again, that might have brought up different complaints. Can't please everyone.

Not as many complaints as now. If they'd set the game 20 years after, most people would be quite happy with the way things are in the game. I know I would be..

I can understand the "because of the mutants" thing, actually. The Capital Wasteland is constantly under attack from super mutants, feral ghouls, malfunctioning robots, fire-breathing ants, DEATHCLAWS, raiders, there's no source of clean food or water, not to mention that the Brotherhood of Steel protecting the wasteland is a fairly recent development.
Plus, there's like, one working G.E.C.K in the whole city, and it's guarded by super mutants in a deadly, deadly, radioactive Vault.

I'm not at all surprised they haven't managed to rebuild and band together.

Honestly, city states actually do make a lot of sense. I mean look at how long it took for Italian Unification, and even then it took a conquest, to actually unify the nation. The same is true with Germany, it took a Prussian ironman like Bismarck to unify the independent Germanic nations to form "Germany". So am I surprised that there is no unitary city state or mega-city, no not really. The only thing I do find kind of odd, is that none of the nations other the the "Repblic of Dave"(which in itself has about as much political/military power as modern day "Sealand" does") havn't either annexed territory or drawn other towns/cities/settlements into their sphere of influence.

Typical human distrust, selfishness, and xenophobia... Thats why

I suppose it could be that most in the wasteland would want to stay from any governing body, since ulimately it was worldwide governing factions that brought the destruction of the world and for most they are possibly afraid that bringing back governing bodies will eventually breed power hungry leaders and eventually lead to anopther worldwide conflict that will wipe out humanity for good next time.. I have a feeling that if I was living in a post apocaliptic world like theirs I wopuld be pretty turned off by the thought of government in power again...

It's not hard to imagine a dark age occurring again. A nuclear holocaust may do that to you.

Just because one part of a country the size of America is moving forward doesn't mean that the other side isn't in a sort of dark ages after a nuclear holocaust.

For one, the resource levels are too low. D'you see any working farms? 'Cause I never have. A handful of Brahmin here and there, maybe, but no fields planted with crops (mutated or otherwise).

For two, all the ground-water in the Capital Wasteland is irradiated. Badly, in some cases. Any crops grown from that water would be badly irradiated, too. And I doubt rainfall would provide everything that crops would need. Considering that places like Megaton and Rivet City rely on water purification plants, it's possible that the annual rainfall in the region - thanks at leats in part to the newly-uplifted mountains and hills - has dropped through the figurative floor.

And the population isn't very high, either. Not counting randomly-spawned raiders and enclave troops, the population of the wasteland in and around D.C. is ... what, 200? 300, tops? Honestly, that's barely enough to maintain decent genetic diversity for future generations.


Actually, putting it that early (only 20 years after the War) would have imposed a LOT of changes in the game. Consider, the war was in late 2077; if the game was set in 2097-2098:

Point #1: There'd be no BOS presence in D.C. The Brotherhood would still be in it's earliest formative years, led by U.S. Army Captain http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Roger_Maxson, the founder of the BOS. Though little is known of the Brotherhood's activities during this time, given their inclination to remain in isolation by the time of FO1 (roughly 2162), it is probable that their first expedition back to the West Tek facilities in what is currently known as The Glow, in 2134, was the first time they sent any significant number of BOS personnel any significant distance from Lost Hills.

Point #2: Speaking of the Maxson family: there would not have been any Arthur Maxson character in the Citadel, even with a continuity-shattering BOS presence. Roger Maxson's son http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Maxson_II, by this time, would be in his thirties - not twelve or fourteen like Arthur. And the next in the line, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/John_Maxson, was born in 2097, and would still be an infant during the game's timeline.

Point #3: No President Eden. No self-destructing Raven Rock. And, really, NO ENCLAVE ... they'd all still be on their Oil Rig, and in Navarro, on the West Coast.

That takes out all the major players in the final scenes of the MQ, other than Doctor Li and our own character. Heck, it takes out the reason why the protagonist's Father dies!

just so you know, you are in error and i'll tell you why.

Farms: they had farms in fallout 1 & 2, not including any grown plants in fallout 3 was a design choice, nothing more.

Radiation: this wouldn't stop the plants from growing as demonstrated by fallout 1 & 2

Population: you only see a portion of the inhabitants, megaton/rivet city/tenpenny tower etc. are much larger than you ever get to see, and they hold many more people.
the engine they use for the game though can't handle that many characters running around at once, not very well at any rate.

Quoted for truth.

I'll keep making comparisons to the Core Region as this seems to be a detail people forget, and seem to think that D.C doesn't adhere to the same rules.

There are farms in D.C, they're just not being used. I found at least three I can picture off the top of my head, and possibly a fourth. They all seem to be inhabited by raiders, though none of the communities even hint at attempts to drive them out. You can clear them out as much as you like, but the locals don't seem to care.

Crops thrive in the warm climate of the wasteland, there's no reason these crops would be irradiated unless the water used was also. Again, no-one seems to have caught onto the significance of digging to aquifers in D.C.

As for population. Unless there is a number mentioned somewhere that gives an official statistic, it's anyone's guess. We know that communities in the Core Region were larger than they appeared, but as far as I know we've yet to discover if this is so for D.C. Rivet city could be attributed to this factor. Though places like Megaton and Canterbury seem to be what they are with no hint of anything greater.

Communities in D.C are somewhat safer in their preliminary stages than most communities in the Core Region, considering Rivet City and Megaton are safe and secure within. This would leave them alot of time to expand and figure out a better means of sustainance. But that's not the case it seems.

Which would be a damn good thing, actually. It would be much better if they were replaced by an entirely different faction (also descended from the US military and power armored).



Another good thing.

I also find it ironic that it was for this very reason that FO3 was set 200+ years after the great war. That is at least something we can all agree on, it's whether or not we agree with that decision, that makes it a potential blunder in some people's eyes.

It would have been nice for FO3 to have a feel of its own and go down its own path, rather than be a culmination of all the past events of the series crammed into one unpolished montage.

More for me to debunk.


F1 and F2 are set in California, an entire continent away. California did not suffer the same intense nuclear bombardment that the nation's capital must inevitably have been subjected to. In F1 and F2, the ground water was not automatically radioactive. In F3, it is, unless processed by a purification plant.


Demonstrated by nothing. F1 and F3 didn't have radioactive water as the sole source for farming.


It's nice that you have such an active imagination. But to me, "if I can't see it in the game, it doesn't exist in the game." Since Rivet City doesn't have a population of hundreds that can be seen in the game - not even in areas you can see but simply not access - then, it simply does. not. have. a. population. of. hundreds. Period.

And there's no way to know if the soil there is still capable of supporting crops.


The very ground water itself - yes, that includes the aquifer - is irradiated. That's the Capital Wasteland's root problem, and the motivation behind Project Purity in the first place.

I dont get how people can't get it through there head that the Capital Wasteland is on the verge of collapse, thats the whole theme of the game, even the only functioning Vault is close to dieing out.

In The Pitt, Ashur says, the capital waste envies their security which is like envy Super Mutants intellects, a bad place to be.

And I do think some of the bigger towns have slightly more people, but Havoc doesn't handle it that well, you know for the same reason F1 and 2 dont have armored ghouls.

The D.C ruins may have sustained a more intense bombardment, though this is still completely unknown unless proven. Again, unless you can prove the water was not 'automatically radioactive' in the Core Region there is no reason to suggest it wasn't, if only to strengthen the argument that D.C's ground water automatically was.

And neither does D.C have radioactive water as the sole source of farming, water purification is just as much a reality in D.C.


There is also no way to know if it isn't. It can't be argued either way. At least if the populous gave it a go we'd have an answer. But I would say that given the fact that the farms themselves are still standing, they weren't the subject of bombing. They wont be contaminated unless they were hit, and if they were hit there wouldn't be any trace of them to begin with, let alone being intact 200 years after the great war. So it's safer to assume they're good for crop yield than it is to discount it. But my point still remains, no-one's trying.

Again, it cannot be proved, and shouldn't be any different from the Core Region as I keep drawing the most accurate conclusions from. There is no reason why an underground aquifer would be contaminated in D.C when there are plenty of them being used in Cali. Either underground water is just as contaminated in both regions, or it's just as pure. More intensive bombing doesn't make radiation anymore permeating. The whole point of Project Purity was to purify the tidal basin. Cali didn't even have a tidal basin to purify. D.C could have got by just as easily as the Core Region.

Do yourself a favor, look up the word "fallout".


... the D.C. area and California are three thousand miles apart, for one.

Unless the jetstream has reversed direction - which I highly doubt - then most of California's wind comes off the Pacific ocean - little or no radioactive dust to pick up, there. Meanwhile, in D.C., the jet stream is coming across thousands of miles of nuclear wasteland. Plenty of radioactive dust to pick up, there.

...

But it's as clear to me now as it was a week ago, Chris: nothing anyone says that doesn't support your personal dislike of FO3 will ever be acceptible to you. That's the root of your disagreement, now: handwave away anything that would support FO3 as a worthy entry in the franchise, while pointing at FO1 and FO2 as "the REAL fallout games". *shrug* Your personal jihad has blinded you to Reason.

Before the BoS arrived, the Super Muties had free rei(g)n in the Capital Wasteland, making any chance for the people there to unite & rebuild not possible. Note that the only settlements that survive that long back, are the heavily fortified Megaton & Rivet City.

Twenty years after the arrival of the BoS, settlements are actually starting to emerge elsewhere: Evergreen Mills, Canterbury Commons, Arefu,...

The Capital Wasteland is a tiny chunk of the landmass of the US. Whatever applies there, doesn't automatically apply to the rest of the US. Other regions might even have completely rebuilt - for instance the Commonwealth.

Well, if my understanding of fallout wasn't clear prior to your comment, it is now. The world was nuked on a global scale, fallout cannot compare to the radiation the world endured during and shortly after the great war. The fallout would be dispersed globaly by the atmosphere, which makes little difference, as the globe has been enveloped in nuclear flames regardless. Fallout is a minor secondary biproduct, and would die out before any surface radiation from a global bombing ever would, let alone 200 years after the great war. Unless you want to argue that FO doesn't adhere to real-world physics and laws, in which case why are you sourcing an entire real-world document. More to the point, Cali would have recieved the same amount off fallout as D.C. Which is still the most acurate sourcing of the FO world.

Three thousand miles means nothing. The world was hit. The entire globe. It's a level playing field. 200 years later radioactive dust will be few on the ground and thin in the air, trace amounts at best, not nearly enough to classify the ground as infertile. The Core Region was fertile before FO1 began which was 84 years after the great war. Again, the Core Region is the source of comparison here.

You can never resist a personal attack can you Please, save it for a PM. Your opinion of my liking or disliking of FO3 is ignorant at best. The root of my disagreements are seeded in these debates, feel free to peruse them at your leisure. Of course I'm pointing at FO1 & 2, they're the foundation and their timeline precedes the events of FO3. But you can put it down to my "personal jihad" if that makes you feel more resolving in your debunking.


The BoS are making no impact on the wasteland, only the D.C ruins. Settlements like Canterbury and Arefu are there because of their resolve. If anything I'd say the mutants were wiping the floor with the BoS. Yet other settlements in the wasteland were more than safe, one of them having enough carefree time to marvel at a couple of wannabe superheroes.

I can understand to some extent a rationalization that the only settlements that really date all that far back are Megaton and Rivet City, and that a lot of these smaller settlements are recent developments made possible by the Brotherhood taking some of the heat off of the Supermutant and Raider incursions. (Their mere presence in the DC Ruins is going to upset the previous power balance - just by being there they represent a different consideration for these groups.) So I can see a rationalization that before the Brotherhood came along DC consisted of pretty much Megaton and a Rivet City boxed into a very small area by encroaching Raider and Supermutants; leading to a stunted growth in the area as compared to what we see in Fallout 1 and 2.

With that rationalization, places like Arefu and such are new developments. Likely, with the addition of Brotherhood patrols taking some of the heat off these towns, it allowed them to finally reach a critical mass where these larger towns like Megaton reached a population level where some people would decide to strike off on their own and make a go of it. They haven't been soaked up into the larger settlements, because those are the places they have come from in the first place. (ie, the populace of Arefu hasn't in 200 years decided to pick up and move on to Megaton, because they've only recently left Megaton in the last couple years.)

That said, it is only a rationalization. There's no in-game fiction to really support a lot of this stuff. It does seem to me like it would have been easier to set the game closer to the War, or even before the events of Fallout 1 and 2. The only real reason being that they wanted to include the Brotherhood travelling across country to check out what might be left of DC. (A development I actually find relatively compelling - it makes sense that the Brotherhood would be interesting in checking the out the base of power of Pre-War America; and that there might be lots of useful tech stored in such a place. Lyons' change of heart makes some sense to me as well - it's not the original mission statement of the Brotherhood, but I can see it as at least feasable that a trek across the breadth of America all on your own might lead to a change of heart.)

I should've made the distinction between the actual BoS and the Outcasts.

In order to set up a secure base in the wasteland, and set up secure patrols looking for technology, the Outcasts would have had to purge a lot of Super Mutants, and ironically enough this way probably saved more wastelanders than the actual BoS.

I really don't get the argument that because one part of a country is doing better then the other should be aswell.

Going by that logic, we all started from nothing so we should all be equally advanced, no?

Why isn't new jersey as rich as New York, they would of had settlers at around the same time as new york so they should be as equally rich by that flawed logic.

Things with humans involved aren't as black and white as you are trying to make out. There is many variables to take into account with any 1 human, never mind a settlement.

This is true, but it's still not the intention of the Outcasts to protect, they're just saving their own hides, whether that is beneficial to the surrounding community beyond their own survival, isn't important to them. Although its hard to tell in-game just how tough and capable different factions are in the wasteland, because everyone's equipment seems broken, and so PA becomes no better than leather armour. I get more than annoyed when I see a group of outcasts fall to a lesser group of raiders.


This is true to some degree, just the differences are too substantial regarding the amount of time D.C has had to pick itself up. I really think Bethesda has been too flipant with their time advances. People come together to survive, and you could get alot done in a year if your life and the life of others around you depended on it. Now mulitiply that survivalist progression by 200 and you get D.C as it is in FO3. Not enough has happened to be a convincing enough series of events. Megaton and Rivet City are perfectly safe within the confines of their walls, Megaton at least has had the potential for a long time to slowly expand their walls, and become a beacon of civilisation. Trade caravans between Rivet and Megaton would become a lucrative operation, and I mean caravans, not a merchant and one guard, that run a route that takes them right by Raider and Mutant garrisons. This and all the rest just exacerbates the problem, whether it was Bethesda's intention to do things like this or not, it's hard to accept D.C as a convincing rendition of 'the way things are'.