Reincarnations and avatars.

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:52 am

I did do searches on several sites. This is what I gather:

1.Wulfharth is an avatar of Lorkhan (or Shor, since he is Nordic).
2.Talos/Tiber Septim is an avatar of Lorkhan (Shezzar to the Cyrodiils)
3.Zurin Arctus, the Underking is an avatar of Lorkhan (for he is Wulfharth reincarnated)
4.Pelinal the Whitestrake was a, and this is I am not sure, an reincarnation of Shezzar?
5.The Nerevarine was (or,indeed, is)a reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar, may he remain always in our hearts and minds.
6.Wulf, a man from Morrowind, is a avatar of Talos.

Is there any I missed, misjudged or just completely @#^$&$ up on?
User avatar
Noraima Vega
 
Posts: 3467
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:28 am

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:40 am

Muthsera,

It is my belief that the true Prince of Madness was Arden-Sul. That theory can be found http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=671918&view=findpost&p=9740722, which deals with incarnations.



___TWM

EDIT: It may be worth noting http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=729690&view=findpost&p=10580637.
User avatar
Flash
 
Posts: 3541
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:24 pm

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:52 am

Bohr III,

Morrowind featured several Divines in avatar form, including, if I remember correctly, Mara and Zenithar. I believe that you need to add mantling into the equation: that is the mortal becoming a god instead of the god manifesting as a mortal. Talos, for example, became the 'avatar' of Lorkhan (or Akatosh, should his role in the Enantiomorph be considered) by mantling his actions, though he was not born as such. Wulf on the other hand was the physical manifestation of Talos on Nirn, and had no other existence.
User avatar
RaeAnne
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:40 pm

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:51 am

I see. Thank you very much.
User avatar
Danny Warner
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:26 am

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:23 am

Most of your enumerations of avatars of Lorkhan is in fact to be better described as aspects.

There is a divine, I guess you can call it, roleplay that goes on on all levels of existence within existence between two opposite but exactly similar beings. This is the Enantiomorph and that is a term you can google. At the highest and thus all others mimic it is Lorkhan and Akatosh. Below them are beings that take up the mantle of each role in their struggle. Tiber took Akatosh's role and Arctus took Lorkhan's. However, when the play was finished, the roles were abandoned.
When Tiber became Talos, he became an aspect of Lorkhan. An avatar implies a manifestation. Tiber Septim was born his own self without really any divine smudges on his self. Just like the Champion of Cyrodil when he became Sheogorath. However an aspect implies what my colleague above called mantling. Talos is Lorkhan because Tiber Septim became so much like Lorkhan that the two became indistinguishable and thus became each other. Now, this is not to imply that Tiber did all the work because I suspect Lorkhan definately had to nudge Tiber along the way.

I'm tired and therefore will stop.
User avatar
James Baldwin
 
Posts: 3366
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:11 am

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:49 am

Thank you. So would you say the same of Pelinal?
User avatar
Penny Flame
 
Posts: 3336
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:53 am

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:14 am

Zurin Arctus' nature is unknown. He may have been a man who was taken over by Wulfharth, or he may have been as aspect of Lorkhan.

Talos is only an aspect of Lorkhan by virtue of his connection to Wulfharth, and the fact that he took Shezarr's vacant place in the Imperial pantheon. That is why the Nords call him Ysmir.

Pelinal is a strange being- an avatar of both halves of the Lorkhan/Akatosh enantiomorph at once, hence his madness and inconsistency.


I suppose you could call Pelinal and Wulfharth avatars, but they are not like Wulf or Martin's dragon, for they were temporary, ad hoc interventions. The people I named above as 'aspects' (or incarnations) were thinking, breathing people with lives and deaths and emotions. Pelinal is a character, not a device.
User avatar
Victor Oropeza
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:23 pm

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:43 am

Zurin Arctus' nature is unknown. He may have been a man who was taken over by Wulfharth, or he may have been as aspect of Lorkhan.

I've got the impression, that his part in the enantiomorph was to play the witness, so perhaps an incarnation (or something like that) of Trinimac...
User avatar
Vickey Martinez
 
Posts: 3455
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:58 am

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:57 am

Isn't the champion of cyrodiil the avatar or reincarnation (don't know the difference really) of Pelinal, so also of Lorkhan?
User avatar
Kirsty Wood
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:41 am


Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion