Reman I

Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:49 pm

All the same, if you concede that the term was never used until the so-called development of what is now labelled "Tamrielic" - and here is one myth we may safely rationalize -, your argument that Reman Cyrodiil "did not even call himself Emperor" seems debunked.


It's depressing to have to actually explain how you've just conceded this point to me.

Alessia didn't call herself (literally) "Empress" because that word didn't exist yet, but she did call herself by the Cyro-Nordic word that eventually came to mean "Empress" in Tamrielic. So the term "Empress Alessia" is appropriate.

Likewise, Reman I did not call himself "Emperor", both because that word didn't exist yet, AND because he chose not to use the Cyro-Nordic title that came to mean "Emperor" in Tamrielic. So, the statement "Reman Cyrodiil didn't call himself Emperor" is accurate on all fronts.
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sam
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:06 am

How does his title matter in relation to his divinity? an emperor is merely the ruler of an empire, and obviously Reman could not claim to this when he first ascended the throne. it does not disprove that he was "born of our mother Cyrod through the seed of Hrol and the life-giving spirit of the Paravant, our Queen Among the Stars," and neither does it prove that he 'merely' inherited the throne.

the myth obviously had to originate from somewhere. I would go so far as to venture that there really was a Hrol who went on a pilgrimage, and that due to the weather, some weird religious hallucinogenic herb, or perhaps a true vision of Al-Es, he ended up mounting a hillock. Sed-Yena could have been a concubine or mistress of Reman's father (who is, to the best of my knowledge, unnamed in scripture?), who got knocked up some time before and then delivered the child to the capital. a king returns to the White-Gold, complete with Amulet - stories are sure to circulate. Besides, belief often transforms into truth, mythopoeia and all.

sorry I don't have a clever title and structured posts,
Lady N.

PS. thanks for posting guys, this thread makes me warm and fuzz :wub:
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Alyesha Neufeld
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:12 am

Others have made very cogent arguments (though Professor Antabolis will not admit it), but the facts remain thus: though Reman Cyrodiil never took the title "Emperor," he claimed all the pretences thereof from the moment of his coronation at the White Gold. Again, "I AM CYRODIIL COME."

It does not surprise, though it does disappoint, the Temple that our most esteemed opponent continues relentlessly to diminish the House of Cyrodiil. All know of his unfortunate dishonesty in the service of the Hlaalu, but perhaps the street is not aware that since returning to the Province, he has taken as his patron one Casmon Oricoses, a notoriously corrupt bureaucrat who has every motive in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis to elevate the uniquely august status of the House of Septim. Even ignoring the ties between Cuhlecain and the Reman dynasty and the questions surrounding his assassination, the Professor's motive in diminishing the former Empire is clearly suspect.
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Naughty not Nice
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:44 am

Fashion and family resemblances set aside, professor, historical accounts confirm that Reman II was born three decades after his father's death.

Who was Brazzalus Dor?
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Tessa Mullins
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:14 am

...unrecorded erfridder of Unsgrad, and anyone with a passable fluency of Middle Cyro-Norst knows the meaning of the name; to wit, "it was in this darkness that the north wind set out from the lands beyond lost Twil."


The Society was aware that professor Antabolis had handily adjusted his linguistic judgement in the service of Sedur Norilnor, but we had no idea that he would be equally sloppy in other contexts. Historical reconstruction has shown "Emperor' and 'Empress" to have surprisingly dissimilar etymological origins. The former is based on the longer title first taken by Cuhlecain, "Emen Peror Ele" or "First Emissary of the Stars". The latter was, as you have noted, derived from the Cyrodiic "Mother of Man", Auma-Par-Eshe, or Alma-Par-Essi in its oldest Aldmeri form. Folk etymology later transformed that archaic title into a female equivalent of "Emperor", which first appeared in writing during the reign of Uriel II and was well established by the time Kintyra assumed the throne.


Where exactly did this stuff come from, if I may ask, the Honoured Temple?
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Antony Holdsworth
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:37 pm

I believe they're both devs, making stuff up on the spot.
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bimsy
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:44 am

While I can already predict your objection to what I am about to propose, I believe it may well be irrelevant whether Hrol's offspring was the product of a god-kings liaison with Alessia-mud or a mad soldier's [censored] of a child -- mythically, they seem to have achieved the same purpose. Ostensibly, this may appear a paradox, but the proof lies in the Amulet of Kings, Chim-el Abadal. As we know from the Daedric Invasion, the Amulet of Kings has such a connection to the royal line that it is able to identify one who is an heir to that line, primarily because anyone who is not of the Septim lineage cannot wear it. Yet witness reports say that Mankar Cameron, the leader of the Daedra-worshipping cult that opened up portals into Mundus in the first place, was indeed able to wear the jewel. Further, the Imperial line itself has been broken and replaced by different families several times -- not the least of which is the huge gap between the Reman Dynasty and that of the Septims, both of whom were able to wear the Amulet. Such evidence has led (most) members of this community to agree, then, that the bond between Tamriel's royalty and the Amulet of Kings is one based on meeting certain mythic prerequisites and fulfilling a particular dualistic mythic archetype (the Enantiomorph), not upon lineage.

Thus, it must be concluded that if the Remans were able to wear the Amulet of Kings, as has been historically attested to, then they (or Hrol, or the Hrol-figure, etc) must have fulfilled this preresquisites -- perhaps, as one early contributor to this discussion noted, through a re-enaction of Akatosh's role in the Creation. In short: credence must be lent to Temple Zero's claim that, at a fundamental level, the Remanada is what you would call a "true" myth -- be it through historical recapitulation of the Enantiomorphic trinity or through later mythopoeia on the part of Talos and his consorts.


Ah, this old chestnut. Let me attempt to lay it to rest once again. (Although, like King Lysandus, I have no doubt that it will rise again.)

It is clear for a multitude of reasons that the Septim propaganda that only those of the Septim lineage can wear the Amulet is just that: Septim propaganda, designed to prop up the dynasty. Even at face value, the claim is absurd -- the Amulet pre-existed Tiber Septim therefore was clearly worn by those NOT of the Septim lineage, e.g. the Reman emperors and the original Cyrodilic Emperors. (Did someone accuse me of being a spear-carrier for the Septims?) It is also well-attested that Mankar Camoran wore the Amulet of Kings. While it seems that being a Septim (read: legitimate claimant to the Ruby Throne) was a sufficient condition for the Amulet permitting its use, it was clearly not necessary. Not to mention the several obvious gaps in the Septim "bloodline" that you mention. Clearly, literal descent from Tiber Septim has nothing to do with the use of the Amulet of Kings.

So, we are in agreement on this:

Such evidence has led (most) members of this community to agree, then, that the bond between Tamriel's royalty and the Amulet of Kings is one based on meeting certain mythic prerequisites and fulfilling a particular dualistic mythic archetype (the Enantiomorph), not upon lineage.


But I'm afraid I cannot follow your logical leap to here:

Thus, it must be concluded that if the Remans were able to wear the Amulet of Kings, as has been historically attested to, then they (or Hrol, or the Hrol-figure, etc) must have fulfilled this preresquisites -- perhaps, as one early contributor to this discussion noted, through a re-enaction of Akatosh's role in the Creation.


No one claims that Uriel VII was born of an egg, or any of his predecessors (at least down until old Tiber himself where facts again fade into a haze of dynastic propaganda). Or Mankar Camoran for that matter. Or any of the other Cyrodilic Emperors (whose succession appears for a very long time NOT to have been based on blood relation). Why do we require Reman Cyrodiil to have special mythic significance? Aside from the obvious need for his successors to retroactively justify their rule over the whole of Tamriel... You might consider their use of the Amulet of Kings to have been justification enough, but as I have said, people like a good story.
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Scarlet Devil
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:32 am

I believe they're both devs, making stuff up on the spot.

Woah, never knew THAT. I have seen them around and to think all this time they've been devs. #$@%
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Nikki Morse
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:33 pm

Allow me to shift the issue, master Antabolis,

Do you accept any part of the Remanada as fact (or at least partially so), or do you believe that it is all made up on the spot? In other words, is it perhaps an allegory built upon embellished real events, as several have already claimed in this discussion? The existence of a historical Hrol seems to have already been 'proven', but is there anything to his quest, the shepherdess, and Reman's now famous quotation?

I would like to put something else out there: Sancre Tor, the hill of which Reman was supposedly born, has existed as a city since Ayleilidic times. Is the name "Sancre Tor" merely a mistranslation from 2nd era Tamrielic? Or was Reman born in the actual city, which was at that time a prosperous commercial center? Either way, it appears to give more credit to Antabolis' theory.

Ayaan-Si
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Roddy
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:01 am

Of course the Remanada can only be "reliably" dated to the Second Era, when the Imperial University refuses to open its libraries to honest scholarship, and the records of the monastery at Weynon were lost to daedra before they could be properly examined. But the evidence is there, whether Professor Hasphat accepts it or not...

Fashion and family resemblances set aside, professor, historical accounts confirm that Reman II was born three decades after his father's death.

With all this locking of libraries the losing of records, I'm not sure if I should trust these historical accounts.
It does not surprise, though it does disappoint, the Temple that our most esteemed opponent continues relentlessly to diminish the House of Cyrodiil. All know of his unfortunate dishonesty in the service of the Hlaalu, but perhaps the street is not aware that since returning to the Province, he has taken as his patron one Casmon Oricoses, a notoriously corrupt bureaucrat who has every motive in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis to elevate the uniquely august status of the House of Septim. Even ignoring the ties between Cuhlecain and the Reman dynasty and the questions surrounding his assassination, the Professor's motive in diminishing the former Empire is clearly suspect.

The thing that confuses me here is, how can our esteemed Professor's agenda be to elevate the House of Septim by downplaying the Reman's, when post-Oblivion Crisis the Septim's status is at a peak beyond reproach? What ground does he have to make by taking the approach you accuse him of? In the absence of a real motive for lying I tend to prefer trusting people, and I can't see how this could be a legitimate motive when there's nothing to be gained by it...
Why do we require Reman Cyrodiil to have special mythic significance? Aside from the obvious need for his successors to retroactively justify their rule over the whole of Tamriel... You might consider their use of the Amulet of Kings to have been justification enough, but as I have said, people like a good story.

Because having a mythic significance automatically earns you double cool points, which is very helpful during the "which mythic figure do you like the most" polls.

If it was truly simply Septim propaganda concerning being able to wear the Amulet, then your point stands, if not (or if the myths may work retroactively to change that truth) then that mythic significance would be required as AP suggested. Besides, how does simple Septim propaganda literally stop somebody from wearing the jewelry (as you may witness in-game), unless the mythic were playing some part?

I don't think its necessarily required that he have special significance, but as you say it makes the story more interesting and that has power. The forces the Dwemer played with can do more than make metal last a long time, get enough people to believe the story, add a little magick and suddenly history becomes rewritten... and the question still stands if you wouldn't mind putting on your philosopher's mask for a moment, how can you separate 'true' from 'created' myths in such a world as that?
Woah, never knew THAT. I have seen them around and to think all this time they've been devs. #$@%

Seen them around? One just registered and the other almost never posts...
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jasminε
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:31 am

Seen them around? One just registered and the other almost never posts...

Well #$%^ me like a goat! I'm sorry. I was mistaken.
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Ernesto Salinas
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:54 am

If it was truly simply Septim propaganda concerning being able to wear the Amulet, then your point stands, if not (or if the myths may work retroactively to change that truth) then that mythic significance would be required as AP suggested. Besides, how does simple Septim propaganda literally stop somebody from wearing the jewelry (as you may witness in-game), unless the mythic were playing some part?


Fellow Scholars,

I would like to join the discussion for a moment by posing a question, as I would like to steal some knowledge from those who have more than I. The sudden disappearance of your septims is merely a coincedence that has nothing to do with my arrival. Nope, nothing at all.

My question deals along the lines of these "mythic prerequisites" that some have been referring to. Specifically, what are these prerequisites? Is it having entirely to do with the Enantiomorph and the re-enacting of the Lorkhan-Akatosh ordeal, or is it something more (or perhaps less)? If it is the former, then I am unsure as to where Mankar Camoran fits into the picture.

I look forward to an answer soon.

Respectully,

The Khajiit Thief
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John N
 
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Post » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:05 am

Mankar's the Rebel, overthrowing the King -- literally, in fact, which probably makes it better. There's probably more to his being the Lorkhan-figure, but others could probably explain/remember better than I can.
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Ludivine Poussineau
 
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