I played vanilla Oblivion for about ten minutes after it came out. I saw the ugly faces and fought really low level baddies and invariably won...


..and then I launched the CS.

Ok, I want to give an example of a world with absolutely no scaling the level of monsters and items to the level of the player, and prove that it would work as immensely enjoyable game that gives a huge sense of achievement.

First of all, the level scaling of items and monsters should be based on the position not the player, thus if an area is low level, then it is filled with monsters and loot suitable for low level players, with a minimal chance of finding higher level loot in there.

And if the danger level of an area is mid-level, then it should be suitable for mid-level characters, with midlevel monsters mixed with lower level ones, and a mixed loot, mostly lower level loots mixed with occasional mid-level stuff and a low chance of finding higher level loots, except for boss monsters and their personal stash that should always contain higher level loot.

And if the danger level of an area is high, then one should find a mix of mid-level to higher level monsters, with occasional low level monsters thrown in, and the loot should be a mix of low level to higher level loot with the emphasis on mid-level loot, and a minimal chance of finding real treasures in the encounters, and containers.

There should also be ultra-high level places that would be too much even for high level characters, with increasingly more chance of finding really great loot in those areas as you advance toward even higher level places.

These places should be there for players that like to have more challenges even when they have completed the main quest, and developed really high level characters, so they can gradually conquer those areas bit by bit, while developing their characters even more and finding better loot to help them with the next area, and so on...

This way with any advancement of your character, and with any better loot you find, you become even more powerful and you can survive in new areas that you could not hope to survive, and this relatively safe area can rapidly broaden as you develop your character, but there would always remain some places deep within dungeons or in unreachable surface areas that would remain too hard for even high level areas.

This world is filled with immense sense of progression and achievement.

As for cheating to obtain high level loot from high level areas, this can be prevented, or made into an advantage for the game, so for instance:

The invisibility effect of the spells should never be absolute, or you might call that camouflage or obfuscate to show the fact that it is not absolute.

The monsters can have a sight power or keenness to counter the effect of invisibility, this way, although the lower level monsters would have low level of keenness and could be easily avoided with low level invisibility spells afforded for low level mage characters, the higher level monsters found in the higher level areas could easily break through the power of the spell with their higher level of keenness, or sight power.

Thus if as a low level spell caster, you cast a low level invisibility spell, you might be able to avoid lower level monsters, but would not get past those higher level guards in the higher level areas, so cheating is off.

This also applies to skills like sneak, and spells like unlock and so on, as those skills and spells might seem adequate in lower level areas, but as you enter higher level areas, you would find your arsenal lacking, and might have to advance with more caution to be able to develop your character and his arsenal with more deliberation to be able to overcome the increasingly level of challenge ahead.

But a clever player with a well-chosen set of skills and stuff might be able to stick to the shadowy areas, or might be able to use the environment to his benefit and outrun the resident evil of the higher level areas and with a bit of luck gain access to a high level stash of items and run away for his life back to lower level areas with an immense sense of triumph and enjoy the new found treasure for a while and it is his rightful trophy, and no one could say that it is a cheat.

When a quest leads you to higher level areas, you might have to wait for a bit to become more prepared to be able to complete the quest, and those quests should yield to rewards in proportion to the danger level of the areas that they are set.

As for character development, the level of experience you gain in any skill, should be in proportion to the difficulty of the task, so if you are a character with a high skill level of sword play, and you kill a low level bandit with a blunt low level knife, you should gain little experience in sword play, because your opponent caused you little trouble, and added nothing to your knowledge of swordplay.

But a higher level opponent would be a better chance if you want to advance your skills, so the players would automatically chose the areas that would give them a moderate challenge in their tasks, and would not linger in lower level areas to power game and advance in levels, because it would take a really long time that way.

Also the level of experience that a player gains while hitting a monster with a weapon should be in proportion to the damage dealt, not the number of times that you hit an opponent, so power gaming with low level weapons would be out, as it would not be different if you kill a monster with a low damage weapon or high damage weapon, but the amount of damage you dealt in total, so you chose your best weapon for each fight and the fights would end sooner and would not bore you.

This also applies to non-combat skills, like mercantile, so you do not sell your loot one by one to the merchant, but sell them all at once and gain level by the total value of the loot, not the number of items.

The spells should follow this rule and give experience with the total power of the spell effects not the total number of casts.

This would result in a streamlined game, with no need for power gaming and doing things repeatedly with low level items or spells in order to gain experience in repeating minimal actions.

In another note, low level foes should be more interested in saving their own hide and keeping their distance from higher level players, but as they would give relatively low level of skill experience and loot, then it would be no problem, but maybe some players enjoy chasing those poor bastards, and finishing them off with one blow, or spell.

I wouldn't say that Oblivion isn't challenging because if you screw up and level the character too fast then the enemies will get too powerful. I'm not saying we should keep the level scale system the way it is in Oblivion I'd just tweak it a bit like make regular enemies have a max level but have bosses be scaled based on your level.

This, the more Morrowind, the better. For level scaling, that is.

I do agree that some rewards maybe shouldn't be scaled up to you, because in some cases that only made you want to not take the quest until you were a high level to get the really great version.

Excatly and I hope thats changed in Skyrim although I hope the rewards are toned down I wouldn't want to get that Shield Of Chorrol at Level 1 that has 35 % Reflect Damage.

That's my point. Oblivion is difficult, not challenging. The difference between challenge and difficulty is that challenge is overcoming a problem and becoming better because of it. The game becoming harder because you have a flawed character is difficulty, as you cannot overcome having a flawed character. Challenge is like lifting weights and difficulty is like the gravity of the Earth. No matter how hard you try you will never beat the gravity of the Earth. However, the struggle of lifting weights derives itself from gravity, but the weight can be overcome with effort.

The game would get boring pretty quickly if your level 40 and every thing is scaled down to level 15 to 20 enemies max. Even if they have a high amount of health its still going to be easy to kill them because your at a much higher level.

Morrowind's level scaling system was good, but not great. I think the Fallout series has actually had the scaling vastly improved.

However, I will agree that some scaling is necessary, but not just to keep a player from getting Daedric Armor at level 1 (If you can find a way to get it, you deserve it, just like certain items in Morrowind - Umbra anyone?).

Here's an idea, however. There should be a very distinctly separate scaling for all things in the game. The main things of course are Monsters, Loot and NPCs.

NPCs should for the most part be fixed. No more bandits with high-end armor, and at higher levels you should be able to take on quite a few without breaking much of a sweat.

Loot and Monsters should scale in a different way: They should have a scale buffer.

There would of course be exceptions, ie: fixed places where certain named mobs or loot spawn (are) for the entire game. Good luck killing the mobs at lower level and good luck finding the loot (like Morrowind where items are just hidden around the world).

The scale buffer would work like this:

A 'Dark Seducer' spawns with a level between 15 and 20 (let's say). Dark Seducer A spawns at level 18 and has a 5 level buffer. This means you will start encountering level 18 seducers at level 13 and they will be very difficult for you. You will see them for the rest of the game however, they will never spawn above level 20 which means once you hit level 25 they will now be not as challenging. Once you've hit level 25 however all Dark Seducers will spawn at their max level, level 20. There should also always be a very slim chance that a monster above the 5-level buffer will spawn (less than 1%) in certain places to keep it interesting.

This means you will never encounter a rat you can't kill, for example, when you are over, say, level 5,but they will still appear.

In order to combat having to wade through such things, creatures, especially wildlife, should flee from you if you are more than 5 levels above them (they remain docile until you attack, then try to escape).

This is all very basic, and I think it would be better for Bethesda to explore the FCOM mods for more detailed and randomized ways of doing this, but it is definitely very important to keep things unpredictable and random.

Also, the 'becoming a god' argument is invalid, and it is the reason why things were so hampered and dull from MW to OB. So what if we become a god? We are traveling the land doing all sorts of things that very few who live there would ever dream of. Do you really think so bandit leader could mess with us after we've been across the country a couple of times and ventured into the most dangerous areas imaginable? It would make no sense. We have the potential to become masters of all magic and combat as well as survival, and we work for it; eventually, we should be able to mow down anyone in our path.

If what we've seen from Fallout 3 to New Vegas is any indication, Bethesda pay close attention to the popular mods out there and use them to gauge what players want, because after all, it takes a lot of effort to make a mod so that must be a good way of looking at it. So hopefully, that means they'll take a long look at FCOM and some other major mods (Nehrim and Unique Landscapes for terrain inspiration, Better Cities, etc). Finger's crossed...

Realistically if you beat the main quest line and are the "Champion of Skyrim" or the "New Emperor of Tamriel," wouldn't it make sense you should be able to outclass most adversaries? I am going to make a DBZ reference, but one of the things I always thought was silly is all the DBZ warriors (especially Goku) would reach a whole new level of power never seen before. Conveniently enough in the next season, there would always be that new villain just as powerful and just as dangerous. I always thought that was ridiculous personally. If I'm the big cheese in Skyrim, I don't want a highwayman trying to rob be for 100 septims. He should be referring to me politely or running in fear.

It would be nice to be powerful with the ability to basically best just about anything. There would still have to be some challenges out there for fighting. Otherwise it would get rather boring I think.

That was always weird when someone like Majin Buu showed up and he was more powerful then the Protagonist but putting that aside the game wouldn't be much of a challenge if all the enemies were set at a specific level. Thats the thing I loved about Oblivion it was always challenging as you enter a dungeon you should expect to fight monsters that are at your level. Now I'm all for having regular enemies at set levels the Goblin Warlords being Scale Leveled those have to go but I want the bosses to be scaled and some other enemies that are involved in quests to also be scaled.

One thing I enjoyed immensely in Oblivion and Fallout 3 was the ability to explore to my hearts content at any level. I don't want to see an absence of level scaling to the point it shoehorns me into "areas" that a low level character should be in (basically a starter zone). That's the complete opposite of the free-roaming open worlds Bethesda has put in its games. If they want to have extremely difficult forts/caves/ruins scattered about or a boss monster deep inside a regular dungeon, thats fine. If they want to restrict rare loot to such areas to be discovered when a character is higher level and capable, thats fine. Just don't hem me in or funnel me along through a certain area because my character is low level. Thats linear and not what I expect from an open world RPG, especially one from Bethesda.

I definitely agree there still needs to be a challenge as to keep players engaged in the experience. But perhaps there is a better way to solve such an issue. Maybe perhaps after beating the main story line, some kind of extra sequence for justifying difficult mobs would make the transition more likely. For example: There has been an outbreak of werewolves and they are terrorizing various villages along the eastern border. Also maybe there could be special dungeons implemented where only a true hero would dare walk sort of thing. I'm sure others have some great ideas that could make this work.

That I completely agree with

The main thing I'll say is that they SHOULD NOT level people.

They keep the game fresh, and let you find full ebony at level one, or netch at level 20. It makes it believable, and much more fun

Morrowind: Stay out of those Daedric shrines, they'll slaughter you.

Oblivion: Another Ayleid ruin? But I also killed 50 nameless Necromancers... yay! I just turned level 2!

And while I'm on the subject, give everyone names. Yes, that includes random NPC A in the ice cave.

I would rather get bored when I reach level 40 after hundreds of hours of play, than be bored by the time I'm level 20 because my character has not progressed. What makes reaching high levels where you are practically a god enjoyable is that you started out so weak. It is the learning curve of the game that is fun.

I already made a comment about this in the Elder Scroll series discussion forum but it was rather incoherent - i hope i can be a bit clearer and more succinct this time 'round. Instead of rehashing i'd like to talk about proposed solutions:

Region-based mob strength: the system used in OOO whereby areas farther away from settlements = proportionally tougher mobs. The problem is that it is entirely possible that player X heads deep into enemy territory, meticulously sneaking, moving patiently...only to get stuck by even greater mobs. The way back is populated by the baddies you spent 45 mins to sneak past...so now 45 mins of your time were spent in vain. Alternatively and more realistically, you could be juuust strong enough to blow past the lackeys guarding the entrance, but not strong enough to beat the guys inside. So again, you have spent time in vain.

Level Scaling with stat/lvl cap + perma cap upon first encounter: the fallout approach. Effective in some respects but also invariably aided by the population of human combatants which, per game lore/design, go down in a couple of hits anyway. More importantly, the FPS skill-based nature of the game also meant players were more tolerant of kicking ass across a diverse geography against whatever opponent.

My own suggestion is to let the players balance things themselves. In King's Bounty, there is a very simple skill called "scout", which outlines enemy composition, in contrast to your forces, and a report stating your chances. The game was heavily populated by baddies which were, by virtue of their sheer power, absolute bars to player advancement. However, "scouting" allowed the player to make meaningful choices HIMSELF...as a consequence he did not feel artificially constrained to certain regions. In my view this is an adequate system Skyrim should adopt. Implementation could take various forms but i suggested, quite simply, an ancestor ghost/ghost-relative-trapped-in-an-amulet who could be consulted, vaguely, about the threat potential of specified locations, with increasing specificity depending on proximity (but never being absolutely specific). Additionally, NPCs within sight could also be "scouted" (or perhaps the system could be more automated or GUI-friendly in this respect.)

With the scout system, level scaling will no longer need to exist. It will also mean drastically less work balancing the degree of scaling.

However, since the game has been so far in development, i'm pretty sure that the devs have implemented the FO3 system. Which is fine, assuming the combat system has more complexity (than Oblivion) so that the player will always feel like he has earned his victories.

I still say that some Level Scaling is needed but they have to make some changes to it. I shouldn't have to stop leveling at Level 30 because I don't wanna have to fight a Goblin Warlord for 3 minutes just to kill it and get an Iron Axe and a Leather Shield as my reward.

The style of Morrowind or Fallout 3/NV work for me. I really disliked the way Oblivion handled the leveling.

I hope scaling will only determine the quantity of simultaneous enemies. But I'm not sure how well that will go over on the Xbox and Playstation.

Oblivions level scaling was a step up from morrowind, Oblivions level scaling was more realistic in every way conceivable. Of coarse bandits would have good armor, they robb, steal, and murder. If you think about it it makes perfect sense.you average city dweller is weak naturally unlike some one who lives in the wilds. All you get with a non level scaling game is a game l ike morrowind, a good game semi hard at first then ridiculously easy later on, by the time you get hopeslayer your one-two hitting guards. At least in oblivion even if your lvl 40-50 you can still (die) believe it or not, maybe no one creature in game can defeat you but multiples might overwhelm you. Like with loot in oblivion over all not much there but every once and a while you found a mundus ring the cream of the crop item, and you never knew when or where you might find it unlike morrowind were all the great items were predetermined, great for the first play threw I guess. I simply suggest they expand on the lvl scaling from oblivion make it better , tweek it up, improve upon it.

Other: No scaling please
Its 0 fun if i can go with lvl 1 everywhere and kill everything without train!

@ Redguard King: you have 2 Options with a yes for the lvl scaling. (Yes scale like Morrowind and Yes scale like Oblivion) and none with "None Scale" Maybe nextime you can add it. It would be helpful, thank you



Oh sure. They can robb a Daedric Prince and thats why they got so good items later in the game... cmon! You sould read sometimes your own posting!

Realistic? How is enemies getting stronger as you progress an inch realistic? And bandits had glass and ebony armor, VERY rare armor. They can be stealing all they want, but like I said, it's very rare. It kind of kills a sense of exploration when you randomly end up on an enemy on the main road with some of the rarest armor piece. The advantage of predetermined items, is the ability of making some of them artifacts, unique items of strong power. Not only artifacts hunting was awesome, but it featured most of the time unique dungeons and tombs. Do you remember the Nord tomb? The body was laid on a boat in a cavern inside a tomb? Or some other very elaborate ideas like a tomb with plenty of rare items, the place being trapped and all? Scaling everything not only makes everything random, but everything identical. There were absolutely no incentive to go explore ruins when you always get the very same items depending on your level. At least exploring a random dungeon in Morrowind meant having a chance on getting interesting items. What did you get besides the same armor, same potions, same scrolls, same books? Getting ANYTHING in Morrowind dungeons was so much more satisfying.

Begone voice of satan! :flame:

Heheh, anyways, the effect of Oblivion style was that as you grew stronger, the world grew up with you, leaving you feel weaker. High level enemies took 20 swings to kill. Level scaling became hitpoint bloat scaling. There was no sense of "this is a scary area, I shouldn't go here yet until I become more powerful." I even have thoughts like, "I shouldn't loot this at such a low level. Let me level up some before I loot these chests." The whole idea is your character becomes more powerful.

If I die at level 50-60, I don't want the reason to be because I ran out of potions while chipping away at a 10000 hitpoint monster. That makes me feel like my sword play or spellpower is weak. No, if I die at level 50-60, it's because I was badly outnumbered and outflanked. In my death, I will have already killed 20 - 30 with my fireballs.