I'm not quite sure how policy quite works for continuing threads. But since this is a popular one, I'm going to make a part 2. Thread continues as follows:

One aspect of Oblivion that I could barely stand was how extensive level scaling was used in terms of progression. What I mean by this is as the player continued to increase in level, more rare and better armor/weapons would begin to drop on bandits/marauders/etc. Level scaling also hurt the experience in Oblivion because the player would only be exposed to certain creatures at a certain level. This completely destroyed the rarity and immersion of finding some of the hardest sets of armor in the game, as well as coming across different creatures. Morrowind was great because you never knew what you would find. Any piece of daedric armor was impossible to find in Morrowind, and very few had the entire set. One could also come across creatures/NPCs that were completely out of their league and could defeat the player easily. This wasn't the case in Oblivion, as everything was geared to making sure the player did progress, and npc/creatures were never out of one's league. Does anyone else feel the same way about extensive level scaling doing more harm than good for TES?

Other. I don't like level scaling at all. I'd sooner have them lower the level cap to 10 than to have them keep level scaling. Probably not a very popular view, though.

A levelling system similar to the final fantasy 12 levelling where the shops always have the same stock throughout the game or they had some explanation for the development in stock.
Enemies stay at the same level throughout the game but are restricted to certain areas.

Anything that makes this game more like morrowind than oblivion is good with me. The system in morrowind may have essentially locked parts of the map off from lower level players, but it also served to tie exploration to character progression in a way that oblivion really failed to do.

I think what mostly annoyed me about the level scaling in Oblivion was the fact that after I would hit a really high level certain monsters and animals would become nearly unbeatable. Where as one was a quick fight at a low level, when it scales to me at the upper level it turns into a nearly 7 minute fight involving me running away from them, quick hurling some magic and hitting them with my blade and then running again to repeat. I couldn't handle the amount of health they had and the amount of damage they could deal.

A good example are the goblins in Oblivion, and another I can easily think of are bears in Oblivion. They would rip my health down almost instantly and take little damage themselves.

I mean other than that I didn't really find anything to bad about Oblivion's leveling other than the higher levels, it would get to the point where you'd refuse to let yourself sleep and level and instead save that for when you were done with the main quest.

I ended up making a simple script that constantly set the player's level to 15. The player would actually level normally but the game would always think you were level 15 and keep spawning level 15 stuff. Obviously harder early on but it was much more rewarding.

What matters most in role playing games is exploration.

The possibilities and dangers stretch ahead of you. New discoveries to be made and puzzles to solve. Mysteries that will make you think when you are around a bonfire, all alone in the wilderness. Sitting on the ground on a ridge, listening to the weird sounds and looking down at the eerie landscape in front of you.

You stumble upon an old campsite, with scattered items. You may have to match wits and swords to investigate. When you do, you feel a sense of accomplishment.

And sometimes you barely escape with your life, but you remember. Remember that spot, maybe you mark it on your old map. For future, when you are better equipped and trained. That opportunity saved for later, draws your mind. You feel you are in a living world, there are difficulties around you, dangers but rewards and great riches as well.

Because you know you have to plan things, you cannot rush into every hole you find. You have to think and protect yourself.

So no level scaling.

Continuing something said in the previous thread...



I'm not disputing that, what I'm saying is that there is always a way to cheat in any RPG. The fact that someone can go out of their way and use some exploit to get a great weapon/piece of armour is of the same form as any other exploit that can be used to "break" the game. So long as it isn't particularly easy to exploit the game in this way - and it wasn't easy to do it in Morrowind - then the damage is mitigated.

I mean you could make precisely the same argument about many other things - e.g. why have invisibility at all, doesn't it just allow people to exploit it? - but you shouldn't determine fundamental aspects of the game like levelling on the basis of preventing the select 0.1% from finding some way to cheat.

The overdone level scaling system was Oblivions biggest flaw IMHO. I'd like to see them go back to the way it was in MW, or like Lemunde, no level scaling system at all. I think the most likely outcome would be a system similar to Fallouts.

Other: No lvl scale



My Post in the first Thread.

This.

That is fine. When we reach post limits and in the closing post a moderator did not tell you not to start another it is fine to start one.

I imagine this discussion will continue for a long while unless it gets where folks can't discuss it without snipping at one another.

Would "Oh I got the max lvl in the game and now i can kill every enemy because I am overimba, with lvl 1 it was much funnier... hmmm, for what should I continue playing now?" be any better?

I like what Oblivion did with the level scaling but the system has problems big ones like Goblin Warlords (Do I need to say any more).

This is what I would do with Level Scaling

Enemy Bosses in Dungeons that are humanoid would be scaled to the character about +3 or +5 your level. Monster bosses wouldn't be scaled and neither would Goblin bosses. Regular enemies like Bandits would max out at Level 10 or something like that. Items would still be scaled so you wouldn't find a Daedric Longsword before Level 20 but not every enemy at Level 20 would have a Daedric Longsword just the boss characters.

Also quest rewards shouldn't be scaled like the Black Band should always be Fortify Security 10, Light Armor +10 Resist Magic +10 but if you did that then the quest rewards need to be toned down like the Escutcheon of Chorrol. Monster Dungeons shouldn't be the only dungeons that have enchanted loot or rings as regular loot have Goblin Dungeons, Vampire Dungeons heck maybe all the dungeons at a certain level carry that type of loot such as once you hit level 10 you start seeing enchanted loot or Rings.

I would keep the enemies out in the world level scaled in appearance like in Oblivion such as you won't see a Troll before Level 6 but depending on where you are that won't bet the case as if you try to get to a dungeon on Throat on the Mountain you'll probably see an Ogre or two and they'll be level 18 but they'll always be level 18.

I think I only hit the surface on what could be done as I think there needs to be some form of level scaling but enemies outside of bosses shouldn't be level scaled and neither should quest rewards if a deadric artifact like Namira's Ring can have Reflect Damage 12 Reflect Spell 10 then quest reward items shouldn't be leveled.

Jup it would be. And if lvl 255 would be the max lvl... dude belive me, you have to play for a looooong time if you want to be overimba. But if you like this lvl scale i have a question, for what are lvl ups for you?

For ...uhm... lets seee....uhm... well... monsters/npcs are on the same lvl or stronger then you with each lvl up... uhmm... damn i cant explain why lvl ups are good then. Uhmmm ...this question is too hard... hej lets play Crysis!!! :gun:

THIS, just this.

I disliked oblivions scaling because

- i never felt i was getting any stronger
- i hated to see how bandits suddenly had very strong equipment
- i hated to see wolfs becoming bears becoming minotaurs etc as someone else mentioned above.

id much rather like to meet some strong monsters every now and then, get killed, and know i have to be more prepared the next time i go there.


So basically i want as little level scaling as possible

I voted for the first option, keeping it more Morrowind style.

More like Morrowind, xboxes and pses already have a level-scaling RPG: Oblivion, so make Skyrim different and better too, than oblivion

very little or none. If you are level 3 and see an ominous cave, common sense might indicate not to go in it, but if you do and die, you will learn your lesson. But the wilderness outside of a town should not be crawling with atronauchs (sp.?) and what not, but rather, enemies a lower level can fight. Not to say that the system in FO3 is immaculate, far from. It was like Oblivion except with area instead of level. No matter where you are in a map should not have a direct correlation to the level of the enemies. If you are at an edge and it is just a forest surrounding a town, it should not be much different from the presumed starting area. Although I think that there should be at least 1 moderately large area with very tough enemies (like Red Mountain). Moreover, I think that they should make sure that as you go farther down a cave or dungeon, the enemies get tougher (or at least a very tough enemy).

We can't completely get rid of level scaling I wouldn't want a level 1 character getting Daedric Armor. It needs to be tweaked but not completely overhauled. Fallout 3's system worked pretty wel although thats because of the Repair Skill only allowing you to repair an equipment up to a certain point but I also wouldn't want an Enemy Bandit Leader to be maxes at Level 15 I want him to be 3 to 5 levels above my character so that I have a challenge. If you get rid of Level Scaling then by the time you hit Level 40 you'll be a god and thats something that you really can't do in Oblivion.

While I think some level scaling is necessary (blasting rats away at level 25 just to get around would get pretty old) I do not want to have to fight uber Daedra everywhere I go. Daedroths are supposed to be one of the toughest creatures in the game - keep it that way by keeping their spawns rare and specifically kept to certain areas of the game. Improve the difficulty of bandits, but don't give them valuable armor (I cannot tell you how annoying it was to sell the xth set of Ebony armor I found when at one point I wanted nothing more than to have my own). Something similar to Morrowind would be ideal, though with some additions and improvements.

The way I've always seen it is that Bethesda should take the strengths of both games as a lesson and make something that bests both of them. I know they'll be up to the task.

I definitely support this idea. Take the strengths of both games and further elaborate on them with Skyrim. If anyone can pull it off, it's definitely BGS.

A level 1 character won't be getting daedric because it will be either scattered in many difficult ruins, or possessed by really powerful characters like Divayth Fyr in Morrowind. I have to ask too, why do you care how other people play their game? It's not like TES is multiplayer. If Joe the Gamer gets an enchanted sword at level 1 because he struggled to beat a character much stronger than him, why should he not be rewarded? That's the problem with Oblivon, it has no challenge. Oblivion is difficult, but not challenging. Whereas Morrowind is not difficult, but it was challenging. Sure you could be the strongest character in the game by level 30, but you earned it because of the challenges you overcame when you were a lower level.

I agree I think they could try to combine some of the things that made Morrowind and Oblivion great but not completely overhaul the system just tweak it a bit like what I suggested earlier in the thread.