I want it to be like Fallout: New Vegas. I don't recall if it had no level scaling or minimal, but it seemed pretty good.

[Note: Anything I talk about in this post is disregarding the main quest, because as I already said on page 2, I do think the MQ should be leveled to some extent. So this applies to forts/ruins/dungeons/caves/cities/forests encountered outside the scope of the MQ.]

While I do think a very small amount of scaling would be alright and perhaps even better than no scaling at all, I think there is a very good way of avoiding the problem you present. In fact, my method would not only help avoid your scenario, but it would ultimately encourage people to level up, while providing them with more than enough opportunities to do so without putting their character in too much danger (as long as they are informed, prepared, and/or cautious). And arguably most important of all, it is based on a very natural state of order.

The idea is that as one gets closer to civilization, the enemies one finds are significantly less of a threat. Conversely, as one wanders farther away from civilization, one will find stronger enemies in greater frequencies (but of course, you will also find better loot this way, as well as some cool unique people/places).


? So for example, let's look at our friend Joe Adventurer, level 1, fresh out of the tutorial. He has no reason to worry about getting killed immediately because he is unlikely to face anything more dangerous than a weak goblin or rat. This is not due to enemy scaling, but rather because Joe emerges in an area that is relatively close to a major city. Joe has two options: [A] he can venture into the forest ahead of him, or [B] he can head to the city behind him. For simplicity's sake, let's assume these are his only options. Let's also assume that he knows he is supposed to meet someone in the city to continue the main quest, and he also knows that the forest holds dangers he may not be able to handle.

-- Here is what will most likely happen to Joe if he chooses Path A: He will soon encounter something like a bandit or a mountain lion, and try to fight it. Despite being warned that he would face some danger, he went into the forest anyway. If he is very lucky, he may survive a few encounters and get a bit of extra loot, but most likely he will either die or be forced to run back to the city. Lesson learned... For now, Joe is too weak to stray far from civilization.

-- Here is what will happen if Joe chooses Path B: He will enter the city, find the person he needs to meet, and learn what the next step is in his journey. Here he may also have the option of joining some factions. From here, Joe has several ways of gaining some experience... He can do some low level field work for a faction/guild to earn some money/experience and better equipment, or he can continue with the main quest (where the game will by default not provide anything too challenging), or he can look around the city for some easy jobs to do for a bit of money/experience without associating himself with a faction. Joe has successfully avoided putting himself in any real danger, but after a few jobs and/or some work on the main quest, Joe will be able to venture deeper into that forest.


? Now let's look at Joe Adventurer, level 30. Joe is now a powerful and experienced warrior. He has been into that same forest dozens of times; he's travelled a mile or two into the darkest, most secluded reaches of trees. He discovers an ancient mine in the mountains on the other side. Joe enters the mine, and finds that it contains some enemies even stronger than those in the forest. He is well stocked though, and is able to venture deep into the mine before he is forced to return for rest and supplies. He returns with a hefty supply of loot, but also the knowledge that there is more yet to discover in the cave.

? Joe is now level 45. He's now been almost everywhere on the map. That forest that was once impenetrable is now child's play. But he still hasn't gone all the way through that mine. He stocks up for the journey and heads once more through the forest and into the mine. He faces many foes, but at level 45, they fall to his blade. He soon reaches the deepest chambers of the mine, where an ancient creature dwells. This is among the strongest creatures in the game. Even at level 45, Joe cannot defeat the monster, but he manages to escape with his life. While Joe was in that chamber, he noticed a recess in the wall that looked like it led upwards, to a different area of the mine. But since he could not defeat the monster, he was unable to explore it. He returns, battered and bruised, but with a decent supply of loot still from earlier in the cave (he didn't bother taking loot from the forest since it wasn't worth taking for a character of his power and wealth).

? Joe, now level 55, is just about as strong as he will ever be. He has travelled far and wide, and by means of stealth, force, and financial savvy, he has procured a very imposing set of skills, coupled with some of the finest equipment from all of Skyrim, and even a few special items to be used in emergencies. He is ready once again to face the monster of the mine. He travels through the forest and into the heart of the mine. Joe is so strong now that getting to this deep chamber was fairly easy, and he still has almost all of his supplies and health when he faces the monster in the mine. After a long and epic battle, the beast finally succumbs to Joe's blade. Joe harvests some rare material from the kill and heads into the recess in the wall he had noticed 10 levels earlier. Inside, he finds a path leading to a new chamber, full of rare gemstones. Joe mines the gemstones, and continues along the pathway until he finds an old stone door. Joe opens the door to find that he is now on the other side of the mountain, in a small region of land that he had not been able to reach before, for the mine is the only entrance to this area. Joe vows to return and explore the area fully, but right now, his pockets are full with valuable gems and rare hides and organs from the slain beast in the mine.

? Joe returns to the city and sells the gemstones. He uses the creature's hide to craft a powerful cloak for himself. The cloak is imbibed with the magic of the fallen monster, and carries a strong enchantment to protect Joe. After selling his loot and restocking on supplies, Joe is ready to explore that new region on the other side of the mountain. Though the land is not particularly large, Joe will find some very interesting things there... There will be a small village inhabited by an isolated tribe of Nords. They will revere Joe as a demigod for slaying the legendary beast from the mine, and reward him greatly for this deed. Joe will then have the option of aiding the village in various jobs, if he so chooses. The land has a rich historic value because of this village, and also the special plants that only grow on this side of the mountain. Joe harvests some of these plants to be used in potion-making, and after thanking the villagers for their hospitality, he returns once again through the mine and the forest, back into that city.

Only now, at level 55, has Joe fully explored all that there was to explore in and beyond that forest that he first saw at level 1. He developed over time, and as he grew in power, he was able to explore deeper and deeper into the wilderness. At around level 30, he had seen most that there was to see, but it wasn't until level 55 that he was able to see it all.

I don't support extensive level scaling, it makes things quite ridiculous. The excitement of having an opportunity to find a powerful weapon at a low level gives more incentive to go around and explore.

Seeing a powerful creature at a low level is also quite exciting, though dangerous. The leveled Goblin Warlords in Oblivion were very frustrating and horrible. :pinch:

This is quite a bit like what I suggested in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1144150-character-development-and-you/page__view__findpost__p__16730544.

I like your suggested adventure a lot. :goodjob:

i liked how enemies would always be a challenge but the fact that they all had top gear was a pain. perhaps only the higher ranked enemies are the only ones with top gear and the lower ones keep gear appropriate to their level?

Great minds think alike! Thanks for the compliment, I pretty much made the adventure up as I went along, haha. I read your post in that thread and I agree with how you distributed the percentages. The biggest perceivable drawback to my suggestion, as someone pointed out in the other thread which prompted your reply, is that in my scenario, a new player cannot fully explore the world, and therefore it is not truly "open." While this is certainly true, I think that it is ultimately a nonissue. At level 1, you can do a lot of things, even if there are still a lot of things you cannot yet do. Let's say at level 1, you can safely explore 20% of the map. By level 5, you can safely explore 33% of the map. By level 10, you can safely explore 50% of the map. By level 20, you can safely explore 80% of the map. By level 30, you can safely explore 95% of the map. By level 40, you can safely explore 98% of the map.

So even though you have to get up near the max level before you can really do everything there is to do, you will always have more than enough on your plate, and you will constantly be able to access new challenges as you level up. In this way, even though the map is not necessarily 100% open all the time, it is effectively open because you always have something new to do as your character develops. Also, the "safe area" distribution is sort of like a bell curve; that is, you get the most "benefit" in terms of square miles per level gained in the mid/low levels. For example, the difference between level 5 and level 10 in my example was 17% of the land mass. That is a lot of new land to explore for a very small increase in total level... Whereas the difference between level 40 and the max level — (let's just say it's ~55, not counting any exploits or a drastically different leveling system) — is just 2% of the overall landmass. But hardcoe players will relish that 2% and they will definitely reap the rewards, as it will consist of legendary, unique places to discover, rewards to reap, and events to experience.

I just realized something. What most of you seem to want is exactly what Gearbox did with Borderlands. Enemies would get tougher the farther you progressed through the game's story, but they wouldn't scale with your level, so you could enter an area with much tougher enemies than yourself and risk getting owned, and if you did then you could go somewhere else and level up before coming back.
Also, with the exception of a few hand-crafted items, all loot was random. It was leveled in the same way as enemies, hence it was more powerful the farther you had progressed in the game, but you could more often that not get really lucky and find weapons that were very powerful for your level.
If anyone else has played the game, you know what I'm talking about. I mean, Borderlands has a different system with generated loot, and a more straightforward questline, but that game's take on scaling could be applied to TES with succes.

I think they should do a combination of level scaling and non-level scaling. Generally speaking, you could go anywhere in Oblivion and have a reasonable chance of surviving at any level. It really made no sense that Dagon would send his stunted scamps to attack Kvatch. Also, you could theoretically almost never use magic and become head of the mages guild.

On the other hand, it was nice to have a reason to adventure. Running into low-level caves in Morrowind to get chump change at higher levels was boring and pointless.

Certain items should be nearly impossible to get until later levels. If people want to cheat and get them early thats up to them.

World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Ultima.

Know why those games where so damn great and best sellers? Because they did not have a level or item scaling system. (the RPG elements of them I'm speaking)

Fudge level scaling!

Exactly.

I hope to experience something like that in Skyrim.

I disagree. I should be able to walk wherever I wish at any given time. If I want to drive to Nevada right now, I don't have to achieve a certain level or learn a skill. I just need to be able to have enough gas in my car to get there. In Skyrim, I should be able to walk from one end to the other, given my character can survive the frigid journey. Levels should be utterly irrelevant.

Get rid of it. No open world RPG should have something like this.

Looking at the poll (and my own personal opinion) I think it's clear, non? No level scaling.

I say no. I thought it was really imersive breaking to get robbed on the side of a road by a bandit stealing for a living and he is decked out in daedric armor...just didnt make sense to me.

Your character can survive the harsh weather... not so sure about the wide variety of creatures it might stumble upon while randomly choosing a destination and traveling across a wild and untamed land. Level is very relevant, only experienced adventurers should be able to survive on remote locations, while plundering unexplored ruins for fame and fortune, otherwise, the whole concept seems rather silly.

Having high level content and enemies in remote or hard to reach places makes absolute sense, and it helps build a believable and coherent game world. An implementation like the one suggested a few posts above would do wonders to make Skyrim a place worth exploring, devoid of that silly Oblivion feeling that your level dictates stats and abilities for everything under the sun and how well equipped every citizen of the empire is.

Oh absolutely lose the level scaling. It was just bad, bandits should never attack you wearing DWARVEN ARMOR. DWARVEN, some of the rarest armor in Tamriel. I was thinking with there being less than a year left before the game is released, the leveling is probably around being complete. So level scaling is either a sure thing, or a sure.. not thing??

All types of level scaling need to die in a fire.

Horrible anology. You could go to Nevada right now because it's civilized; there's no danger (I'm assuming you mean a normal town/city in Nevada). You could also go to a rugged mountain forest in Nevada, but you might well die there if you don't know how to handle yourself... It's the exact same principle here. Technically speaking, Joe Adventurer from my example COULD go wherever he wanted if he managed to avoid enemies or somehow outrun/outwit them. But he would not be able to handle himself everywhere until he became strong enough. It's actually the exact same thing with your own example; let's say instead of driving to Nevada, you drive to Alaska.

You arrive in some small town. You can go south/west to reach bigger cities, or you can go north/east to the wilderness. At first you'll just encounter some foxes and deer and such, no big deal for you and they'll probably just leave you alone anyway. But you want to go further, toward some big mountain on the horizon. As you get closer to the mountain and further from civilization, you'll start encountering more dangerous animals, like wolves and even bears. You'll also find fewer sources of food and shelter. If you're an experienced woodsman/hunter/hiker, you can probably make it out to that mountain. But if you are none of these things, you will most likely not make it for one reason or another (being attacked by a predator, starving from lack of food sources, succumbing to the cold, or not having enough stamina).

I don't know whether you just didn't take the time/effort to try to understand my post, or if it's because it just went over your head, but I'm pretty sure I just turned your own anology against you to lend further credence to my idea... Perhaps my wording was a bit unclear as well, but to make it more clear: there is nothing physically barring Joe from exploring 100% of the map. It is just very unlikely that he will make it out to the farthest reaches of the wilderness at level 1 because he will almost certainly encounter something much too strong for his level before he gets there. Hopefully that clears things up, but if you still disagree I'd love to hear why.

This is a stupid poll !

Now we can only have overdone Oblivion-style level scaling, with bandits in the best armor of the game ?

Or no level scaling at all ?

So what about Morrowind ? Or Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age and all the other games that reacted reasonably to your characters level ?

Of course I want level scaling back. Its the standard feature of many games. Only dont do it like Oblivion. Bandits wear rags. And there should always be some areas where you still have the mobs around that have been around with level 1.

Of course Morrowind had level scaling.

For example, the infamous Cliff Racers started appearing once you had level 2.

The OP specifically refers to "extensive level scaling" in the poll. Granted, what that specifically means may be open to interpretation, but I'm assuming if you vote "No" in the poll, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are against all forms of level scaling. I voted no and as I've already stated in this thread I think that there should be a degree of scale in the game, but outside of the main quest it should be very minor in my opinion.

They definitely realized they went too far with it in Oblivion, and have stated that multiple times. The level scaling was also much less in Fallout 3. We can be pretty sure that whatever level scaling Skyrim has will be nothing like Oblivion's.

Get rid of that piece of [censored]! It ruins the whole thing in this game, seeing as your character improves as time progress!