What is an RPG without sense of progression for your character?

What is an adventure game without sense of achievement in being able to do a task that you could not do before.

An open world would be a really bland world, if there was no occasion that you felt triumphant because you could reach a place that you could not reach before.

If all the monsters in the world were scaled to your level, and all the loot that you found were suitable for your current level, then why even try to explore, why even try to develop your character, why even try to play an RPG game.

If you do not want to sense the progression of your character, then you better play an FPS game, and beware current FPS games are moving toward RPG games with some RPG elements like skill development, different character classes and so on...

Pretty much this lol.

I'm sorry that I don't want this game to be as forgiving as Oblivion was, I want some depth, yo!

Id like a mixture of both, nowhere near to the extend as in OB but certainly enough to keep a challenge up in later levels but also having the instant death if u go into the wrong hole

Only if the level scaling is kept minimal, so that when you return to the place that you have beaten a while ago, you do not feel as challenged as before, so that you could sense your progression.

You can keep the challenge in another way.

If the danger level of different areas around the world was different that gradually change from newbie places to ultra high level places that even high level players would be greatly challenged in them, then there would always be places that you would be safe in them and there was always places that you would be challenged in them.

Not if you lived off the land - or lived here (I assume the states or CA) 200 years ago. You would absolutely need skills and time to develop them.

We can all guess that Bethesda keeps an eye on modding as F3 had better scaling than Oblivion - haven't played NV yet.
I hope with their new engine that they release a CS and allow (make room for) as much modding as before. Otherwise it will be a great game - then we all move on.

By modding we can design our own leveling.

More like Morrowind, definitely. The greatest let down of Oblivion for me, was all the scaling. It was ridiculous, it was too much. In FO3 it was much better, so let's hope this continues through TES V.

Hi guys, i heard that you are working on TES V. Please make the game AGAIN with this funny levelscaling system. Because its sooo fun right?

"Hej im lvl 1 and I can go everywhere and I can kill everything"
or
"Oh I got the max lvl in the game and now i cant kill any enemy because they are overimba, with lvl 1 it was much funnier... hmmm, for what are lvlups again?"

So guys, just keep workin on levelscaling, because its awesome ...NOT!

Oh right you have to save Money and its too hard to make an Openworld-Game without generating/scaling units, it takes to much time. But its ok I dont have to buy the game, so everything is fine.

PS: The lvl scale in Fallout 3 was the same. It was not so strong like in Oblivion but the same anoying thing. Its very anoying!

This.

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As I clarified in the poll, and reinforced various times throughout the thread, I recognize there is level scaling in Morrowind. Every RPG has some form of level scaling as progression is a pivotal experience for the player. My argument is to what degree of level scaling is okay for the player to have in the game? Oblivion's use of extensive scaling in my opinion, and many others, was way over the top and ultimately an immersion breaker. When you become the Champion of Cyrodill/Divine Crusader of the Nine/Madgod Sheogorath, you don't want to see a highwayman (in daedric armor no less because you are a certain level) try and rob you for 100 septims. That highwayman should be running the opposite direction in fear and he should be properly suited in fur/leather armor. The point of this thread is to show to Bethesda, which Fallout 3 seemed to address better, that level scaling in Oblivion had too much influence in the game experience.

I say no to Oblivions style of level scaling. I liked what theyd did in Morrowind. I also like how they did it in Daggerfall as well.

I want some form of Level Scaling but I also want it tweaked from what Oblivion has. Bandits shouldn't be wearing Glass Armor although the bandit bosses on the other hand should be.

You should be able to find Daedric Armor at level 1. I found it in Morrowind at level 1 on Divayth Fyr, but the chances of you attaining it at level 1 should be like you walking up to the Emperor in broad-daylight, stabbing him in the chest, and walking out without any guards noticing. Basically, about a snowflake's chance in hell. It should be there, but it shouldn't be attainable. And DO NOT put in Heavy Armor Training or Daedric Training! DO NOT!

I think it depends on map size. If the map is large enough to hold areas specifically for higher level creatures then great, but if its a smaller map and I cant explore half of it until I reach a certain level then I will not be happy.

In the latest podcast from Bethesda (or the one before that), I recall them saying that they consider Level Caps to be a bad thing now, and that players should be able to continue to advance if they keep playing. I hope this comes true!

Nah I wouldn't want to find Daedric Armor at Level 1 because all somebody needs to do is spam Invisibility Scrolls or Span Starlight or a spell similar get your illusion up to Journeymen and just use an invisibilty spell. I can accept if its on an enemy like Umbra but the difficulty of that enemy should be powerful even if you turn down the difficulty to the lowest setting. Oblivion did it right with the armor as the only armor set that you could get outside of its normal level appearance is Elven Armor.

This

I'm not quite sure how I feel about that personally. Right now, Oblivion at least is an interesting mixture of a skill-based/level-based system. If you take away the level cap, sure the player in theory will continue to progress, but at the same time there will be no limits to what the player can do. We may as well not even choose specific classes at the beginning, because they would be irrelevant without a level cap. Players would be able to do everything. Having a level cap not only can keep balance in the game, but there is also eventually a stopping point, where the player at this point should feel like a hero. I don't know about you personally, but going on progressing forever doesn't sound that intriguing. That's how Darkfall Online works and that game has so many different issues that a large portion of the community left because of it. I think there can perhaps be a revision of Bethesda's system, but removing a level cap altogether is not a smart move.

Well Oblivion does have a level cap once you get all 8 skills to 100 you can't level up anymore. I don't see how they can get rid of the level cap without it causing major problems.

Level scaling must go. It is painfully obvious in any incarnation. It makes the game less challenging and destroys immersion. I just do not understand why it's not okay to have certain areas be extremely tough on new, low-level characters. I loved the fact that in Morrowind you felt trepidation and nervousness before entering an unknown dungeon. I remember I had to try every trick in the book to kill the bandits and mages in the cave on Seyda Neen with my level 1 thief character. Ahh the memories.

I disagree I think it makes it more challenging because if somebody finds a broken weapon like a Deadric Sword at Level 1 Their character is going to be pretty broken for the 1st part of the game.

Perfect example of this generations inability to delay gratification. I want what I want when I want it yesterday.

The truth of the matter is that never happened in Morrowind though. You don't need extensive level scaling to make sure players don't get their hands on powerful weapons at the start. Bethesda is more than smart enough to create a map with well-placed items. They have complete control of what the player would have access to, so this really shouldn't even be an issue. Honestly though, if a low level player were to get their hands on such a high level weapon, kudos to them because they probably more than likely earned it.

The problem with level scaling is that nothing matters. Any set of armor is as good as any other because the enemies will be scaled down to your level anyway. You could beat Oblivion in one or two levels. it's been done. Besides, if you find a Daedric Sword by chance (and I don't think anyone here would suggest attaining one would be easy) then you'll have the long blade skill of a neophyte and that awesome sword will be less awesome because you're a novice using it.

Don't you think it's immersion shattering KNOWING there is NOTHING in the world worth having until the game decides it should exist based on your level?

You make some good points but there is always going to be a way to abuse the system. It happens every time thankfully Oblivion got it partially right in that department. That doesn't mean I'm against keeping level scaling as I do think that the system needs to be tweaked a bit. I'll post my complete reasonings on why I think that Oblivion kinda nailed it but it needs to be tweaked a little bit in the 2nd thread.