That's a dumb statement/argument,i'm not even going to say why,that should be obvious.

Basically the topic description says all.

I see the removal of the attributes as a simplification of the game. I think Bethesda is doing what every company is doing. Simplifying the games. (Supreme Commander, Splinter Cell, Patrician...)

The removal of this system to allow casual gamers to simply increase their health and stamina is a mistake.

Also, consider that Bethesda has said we have 280 perks... Well, it′s a good number, but how many perks to we need to substitute the attributes? If we want to do it well, we need at least 50...

50 is the number you can choose.

Simplification is only a negative change when it introduces a limitation or reduction of content, though.

As much as I love having attributes (for nostalgic and comparative purposes), can you describe a single character action or progression path that is now impossible as a result of attributes being removed? Can you describe 50 of them?

Could you provide a link to a specific post? Otherwise this is getting really hard to track.

It seems your argument is that everything "redundant" should be left out, but I can't agree with that. In the end, we could just have our level as the only value, which results in higher damage, higher running speed, faster stamina regeneration, and so on.
Of course, you wouldn't want that, because this is a role playing game, and you'd like to distinguish between different characters. So you have to make choices, and your choices have to matter.

Attributes add another layer to that. You could have a master-swordsman with very high strength, or one with very high agility for faster attacks. Key to this is of course that you can't push all attributes to the maximum amount. Your choice has to actually matter.
There should be a fixed amount of points you can spend on your attributes, just as there is for perks now.

Yes, you could melt this down to Health, Magicka and Stamina, but why? This would oversimplify things and don't do attributes justice. Why should my stamina influence how fast I can run? Why should my magicka-amount influence its own regeneration rate? By narrowing the system down, you have to make choices that are not sensible.

While some of them are going to be tied to specific weapons/shield/magic types, not all of them are. What's to stop them from a perk that increases your melee damage (like strength does), or increases your magicka regen? We know that the perks are tied to the skills, but I highly doubt they will be simply, +X to your skill. I remember one that decreases the sound of your footsteps. As long as you have feet, that one is still good.

If I never use magic: ie no magic shield, no magic fireball. Because I am a warrior type. What 'perk' would open up to me so I can resist magick attacks later down the line?

Willpower attribute has the potential to do this. And how long would I have to wait for this save me from magic perk?

For any of those types of people, how did you do it in Oblivion with attributes? Everybody had luck start at 50, and speed 40. Personality had no real effect within the game at all. Hopefully, that can be done with conversation choices.

As for not having side effects, it's called Opportunity Costs. Just like in Oblivion where you can choose to increase a few attributes each level, at the cost of not increasing the others, In Skyrim you must choose which perk to take at the cost of not taking another one.

So you want the strength attribute to represent how much more melee damage you can do than somebody with less. This is exactly what Bethesda was talking about. You aren't raising strength to be stronger, you are raising it to hit harder, or carry more stuff. Why not just have a perk that allows you to do more melee damage, or carry more stuff. You are getting the same outcome, just a different vehicle to get there.

How about something in the armor skills?

Also, for those who think they "limit" the possibilities: follow me closely, we're gonna do maths!

Morrowind: 8 attributes X 27 skills: 216

Oblivion: 8 attributes X 21 skills: 168

Skyrim: 3 attributes X 18 skills X 200 perks: 1080

Skyrim (taking into account the 50 perks limit) : 3 attributes X 18 skills X 50 perks: 270

Of course, that doesn't count the number of increases, but is this really limiting?

If I never use magic: ie no magic shield, no magic fireball. Because I am a warrior type. What 'perk' would open up to me so I can resist magick attacks later down the line?

Willpower attribute has the potential to do this. And how long would I have to wait for this save me from magic perk?

Perks pertain to a particular skilll or weapon of choice. If you don't have the weapon/shield/magic, the perks are meaningless. However, an attribute is with you no matter what you use.

Humor me.

If I never use magic: ie no magic shield, no magic fireball. Because I am a warrior type. What 'perk' would open up to me so I can resist magick attacks later down the line?

Willpower attribute has the potential to do this.

But that's the point my friend,it doesn't simplify things. We have 280 perks,with ranks in there also,thats alot. We don't know if we have perks for health,stamina or magicka.There might be more to those main three things. I just find it more interesting to able to pick a limited number of perks/ranks,that matter to my character,rather than eventually getting to 100 in all attributes,some of which were useless. How in all honesty is personality useful,when we have speechcraft and illusion? There are questions that do need asking about it.
If we have encumbrance,perks,skills,ranks etc,whats the use in strength? Same could be said for other attributes,as i've explained,the new system,and how some spells and skills were in oblivion does show a weakness to attributes. The fact i can limit myself to choosing 50 perks,and have to pick them carefully,to make my character unique is better than evetually reaching a 100 in all attributes. Everyone is going to have their own views,but the fact is,they're gone as we know them.

Why should attributes help you with everything?? Why does using an axe and getting really good at using axes suddenly increase the amount of damage you do with a blade?? Why does getting hit more times whilst wearing light armour make you walk faster?? Why does picking locks and sneaking around suddenly make you a better archer?? It shouldn't, which I imagine is one of the reasons they are changing it.

Now if you concentrate solely on axes your not suddenly awesome with swords, because you picked the axe perks, not the sword one. Same applies to all the other examples.

Ok, lets hope they put that in one of their "280" well thought out perks. And lets hope that I don't have to wait to level 20 to get this perk while I am tattoed by magic. And then lets hope I don't change from light armor to heavy armor and lose this 'perk'.

A willpower attribute is never lost.

Basically the topic description says all.

I see the removal of the attributes as a simplification of the game. I think Bethesda is doing what every company is doing. Simplifying the games. (Supreme Commander, Splinter Cell, Patrician...)

The removal of this system to allow casual gamers to simply increase their health and stamina is a mistake.

Also, consider that Bethesda has said we have 280 perks... Well, it′s a good number, but how many perks to we need to substitute the attributes? If we want to do it well, we need at least 50...

But all perks are bound to skills, as far as we know. Anything else is just wishful thinking at this point.
Attributes would serve to distinguish characters further from each other while not being bound to skills. And as I said, you should not be able to get 100 in all attributes, and personality would be useful by modifying the effects of speechcraft and illusion (it also could increase the chance that wild animals and enemies don't attack you, etc). So would strength, willpower, etc.

The point is we do not have to chose between perks and attributes, we could have both, and both could be meaningful by limiting the amount you can spend, and both would help to shape your character role from different angels, which is an important value of its own in any RPG.

Clarifications on#Skyrim. There is no hard level cap. Effect of Attributes have been folded into skill perks and Magicka, Health, Stamina.

But in this system attributes are redundant, because of the way they have chosen to make it.



How hard is that to understand, that you aren't loosing anything with the new system??

But in this system attributes are redundant, because of the way they have chosen to make it.

hell if anything you're GAINING from it. just look at the number of possibilities from my past comment!

Basically the topic description says all.

I see the removal of the attributes as a simplification of the game. I think Bethesda is doing what every company is doing. Simplifying the games. (Supreme Commander, Splinter Cell, Patrician...)

The removal of this system to allow casual gamers to simply increase their health and stamina is a mistake.

Also, consider that Bethesda has said we have 280 perks... Well, it′s a good number, but how many perks to we need to substitute the attributes? If we want to do it well, we need at least 50...