http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1181094-removing-attributes-is-a-mistake/

Thread one was a succeed.

Casual players aren't that dumb. Put some more depth in it is what i think :shrug:

A SECOND ONE?! :facepalm:

The Elder Scrolls is about change. This is a change. Let's leave it at that.

Exactly. Dude, didn't you learn from your first one getting locked?

The first one got locked because of the post limit.

Well, that was because the post limit was reached but still... pointless topic. I was really looking forward to it's lock.

Does that means it's a troll topic or what? it wasn't a success at all, NO ONE seems to understand either side!

Side 1 : I want mah attributes back! I don't care for novelty of any kind, and I know exactly the ins and outs of the new system, so I'm well-placed to judge: it svcks!!

Side 2 : I haven't tried it but it rocks! way better than attributes!

Side 3 : why don't you all just play the game BEFORE judging? (unfortunately, this side is the right one, and is the one ignored

It reached the post limit. That's just what happens. :turned:

It got locked because of post limits,thats all.

Really, we are going down the road of "removing attributes dumbs down the game and makes it easier for casuals"? Because in reality, Skyrim is more complex now for the first time since Daggerfall. There are more permutations in Skyrim then in Morrowind and Oblivion....combined. Yep, definitely "dumbing down" when it requires more skill on the part of the player to play and more customization than the "godlike" Morrowind...

They have been smarting up (TM of Sleign) with Oblivion and now to the extreme with Skyrim and I don't see how more of what people claim to make a great RPG somehow makes it less of an RPG. On the merit of customization (which most of the people that don't like the removal of attributes say is what makes an RPG and is their reasoning for not removing attributes) Skyrim is already better than all previous TES games except maybe Daggerfall in that department. Wait until we play the game to get the final verdict but if as you guys say that customization decides if something is good, then the new system is already ahead.

There's another active thread titled "perktributes" on the front page.

Well...okay. Haha. But yeah, this topic has been discussed so many times, it's practically the only thing we can find on the front page. So sad.

I think it's too late in the development cycle to be modifying anything as integral and fundamental to so many other parts of the game. If they do end up changing it back the game is most likely going to be postponed.

I'd rather have Skyrim sooner then later, and I am not inclined to believe that this is in fact a mistake before I even see the game. Although I am a bit apprehensive.

Alright, now it's settled, LOCK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm confident in saying they won't even have a second thought about changing the system. This is as good as done.

Tood "Attributes have been significantly condensed down to simply strength, stamina, and magic, which Howard says will still trickle down into the same character buckets they did when you were managing more than double that many."

Pete " There is no hard level cap. Effect of Attributes have been folded into skill perks and Magicka, Health, Stamina."

hurr durr no gameplay difference except for addition of 280 perks that do cool stuff

There were like 4 on the front page yesterday, with one being openly insulting in the title, and the mods didn't lock it till it got to the post limit.

Well, I am the OP. I have started it because I thought it was an interesting one, but honestly I haven′t been at home so I hadn′t red the whole topic.

Anyway. I have expressed an opinion in the first post, but I admit I might be wrong. Let′s wait to have more information about the system...

Perks can offer you more resistance to magic, more strength...But, well, if you can only choose 50 perks...mmm, ugh, ehm...

Pickin a perk associated with strength should give you more than say adding a single point into the strength attribute in Oblivion. So you can't really compare then like that.

I′m not comparing it like that. But, anyway, if it′s not 1 point, maybe...?3 points? Because it has to be a fixed number...Or maybe a more complex mathematic function...Well, you are convincing me about the new system...

This...The change isn't negative. It doesn't oversimplify the game.

We don't LOSE anything except for an unnecessary tedium. Why do I say this? Because the game mechanics aren't what's changing: it's simply the interface that will shift away from an excel-like format.

Besides, the poll http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1180946-perks-vs-attributes/ makes it pretty clear that most players are fine with the current blend of perks/attributes.

It comes off as a bit silly to continue moaning about such a non-issue, you know? The perks really do operate like a more efficient attribute system.

The primary thing that's change is that they'll be more useful, more applicable, more varied, and change more each time you add one.

That all seems positive to me :thumbsup:

Edit: Edited to be more positive and less douchey

No discussion of attributes is a success, just a circle.

This is in response to ebsn's last post:


I would love for this to be handled by height and weight. It never worked well with attributes anyway because, depending on how that nord and elf leveled, the elf could very well have more strength. And a height/weight ratio would follow your black belt example. Characters in Morrowind and Oblivion already had a fixed height and a ratio of height and weight based on their race or six. It's just a matter of translating it into damage output and other things like running/jumping. And because Skyrim seems like it will allow some changes to height and weight in character creation, a player could tailor the character to fit his needs.

Say you're making an Imperial who has a base height of 10 (arbitrary measurement). Pretend also that character creation allows you to vary a character's height by 10% of its base, so you can make an Imperial with a height of 9 or 11 or anything in between.

Say also that your base weight is equal to your current height. This can be changed too by 10%. If I made my Imperial the default of 10 height, I can set his weight to be between 9 and 11. If I made him have a height of 9, my base weight would be 9 as well but could vary between 8.1 and 9.9.

The height/weight ratio then defaults to 1.0, but can vary between 1.11111 or 0.90909 (best to round it to 1.1 and 0.9). This ratio cannot be changed directly, but can be changed by moving around the weight.

Now say that the character has two hidden attributes "dmg" and "spd". They start at 100 and represent a percentage of the default damage and speed. dmg is multiplied by weight/10, and spd is divided by the ratio of height/weight. So, characters that are heavy do the most damage, and characters that are light for their height (regardless of actual weight) run faster. Remember that even though dmg only depends on weight, weight depends on height. So a taller character has a higher maximum and minimum weight than a shorter character.

You could even add two other hidden attributes, "enc" and "acr" or something which represent maximum encumbrance and maximum jumping height/distance as a percentage of default. enc could be multiplied by height/weight so that characters heavy for their height (regardless of actual weight, low center of gravity and whatnot) can carry more. jmp could be divided by weight/10, so lighter characters jump higher. Again, shorter characters have a lower minimum and maximum weight, so they'll typically jump higher.

The numbers can and should be invisible to the player, really. It should be made clear to them that the taller and heavier they make their character the harder he'll hit but the lower he'll jump, etc.

Too complicated? Take all the ugly maths out and I think it makes more sense than attributes would. Now, 95% sure they won't implement something like this, but it's a dream of mine.

EDIT: Of course, I should mention this in case someone misinterprets. Different races would have different base heights. So Nords would start at 11 height and can go from 12.1 to 9.9, Bosmer start at 8 height and can go from 7.2 to 8.8, etc. Still making up all numbers.

Perks can replace atributes, but how many perks do we need to do that?

Probably around 200+....

Well if it's going to be anything like Fallout, and I'm guessing it will be, you'll also get alot of free perks as a reward for completing various quests. I'm kind of hoping for more of a Fallout type system myself, I thought the SPECIALS were a good way to go about things. You determine your basic stats at the start of the game and work around those from there on. Perks also allow for alot of customization of your character. I've read that there's going to be something like 250 perks in total to choose from, so every character is going to be quite different from each other in the end. It's going to leave things wide open for the modding community as well, once they start coming up with their own perks to add to the game. Personally I find it rather foolish to condemn/praise this change until everyone's had a chance to actually play with it. It might svck big time, but it might be an excellent change to the game. But we won't know for sure until we actually try it.