http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1164830-betarelz-dongles-waterpack-plus/page__p__17144438__hl__dongle%26%2339%3Bs__fromsearch__1#entry17144438 is the latest, it contains some of Dongle's meshes remade up to use my bump maps as well as the Vivec temple waterway. I only included the largest of each shape of Dongle's meshes, as resizing them is relatively easy with either the CS or Nifskope, I'll eventually release a complete collection including TR's water meshes(though to be completely honest, they are just Dongle's renamed for TR, so that part will be easy). Sorry for going OT Hrnchamd.

Be sure to make a release thread when you do, I don't want to miss it!


And welcome back Hrnchamd!

Yes, 4x is a lot, which is why I suggested only as much as 2x. Carrying a ton of soulgems can be a problem.


I agree. But didn't you know? Everyone in Tamriel stores their items in hammerspace. Forget about the weight. Just where do you put all of those? A limited physical space, plus weight would be ideal.


But they might just save your life!


Well, we can always update scripts, right? If there are workarounds for scripts, I think it is worth the flexibility and immersion it would add. Plus, it would kill off 1 second fortify spells as well.


I could swear that Argonian was doing less damage to me though.




Never noticed.


Well, dispel should ignore powers, but having the functions could be useful.


My my, aren't we technical. I've never seen short people able to run especially fast. I know the weight makes a difference, but in this case I wouldn't think the weight difference would affect it so much. When I mentioned height, I meant the height in the CS, just to be clear. I could be mistaking it with the weight, but I'm pretty sure I read that the taller races move faster.

Lastly, I'm not sure why it comes to mind now, but would it be possible to just remove all stolen flags when the came clears data every 72 game hours?

I already suggested something similar http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168252-mod-requestdiscussion-revised-theft/. 72 hours seems a bit short, but as a game realism improvement it has some save cleanup usefulness too. Still hoping...

Ah, I've been wanting this issue to be solved for a long time, and I first brought it up over 10 threads ago. It was determined that inventory items don't have a reference, and making them have one would cause items not to stack, which could get troublesome. I don't know if what could stack could be filtered, but in any case, it was thought to be unfeasible to implement. I'm still hoping too, which is why I brought it up again. It certainly seems more possible. I agree that 72 hours is short, but it would go with the rest of the data wiping. I suppose the time for all wiping could be increased, though.

The problem with that argument is that this is a game, not real life, and the races are supposed to be balanced in terms of strengths and weaknesses. It seems like they are if you look at the racial stats, but this bug adds an 'undocumented' modifier that effectively gives some races extra speed points. If the devs want height and weight to affect speed as they do in real life, they should just add a speed bonus (or penalty) to certain races and rejig their stats to reflect this.

(deleted)

Enchanted pockets in your enchanted pants.


It might break the base game which is really not amazing without a patch being ready. Imagine testing that too.


The Argonian was probably getting a bit fatigued. People would have noticed since you can make ridiculous elemental shield potions with alchemy. The damage part of the spell behaves like thorns, returning damage when you're hit. I should document it properly one day.


Actor weight scales the x-z plane so that heavier characters move faster due to animation scaling on the root node, actor height scales the y axis, but jumping is physics driven instead of animation driven so I don't see much difference.


The game doesn't clear data every 72 hours, it clears every cell change the references that are older than 72 hours. I don't see how to clear individual stolen entries safely.

not sure id anyone's ever tried this, but i thought MCP might be good for this.

when the swimming animation starts in MW the player is always underwater, ie: they shouldn't be breathing, because their heads underwater, and it's only when you go a wee bit deeper that the "breath" thing starts.

would there be a way to redo all this? so the animations for swimming start when the players head is still slightly above water? and that the breathing-bar starts when your head actually goes underwater, not just further down?

It rather depends how the information is stored, ie. to what it is attached. In the thread I linked, I gave a possible algorithm that could work on save, if there was a way to store the length of time since "last steal" from a particular trader. From my limited understanding, stolen data is information attached to the trader, not to the item or ingredient, or am I wrong? When you are in console mode, and you see the ownership info on an item, where is that drawn from? From a set of data attached to the item? That would make things more difficult, since working from the merchant side you'd have to iterate through all possible items to find a reference to their name in stolen data attached to the item.

A less ideal method (since the references would still hang around until triggered as now) but arguably more robust would be to handle it directly in the barter process when an item is actually determined as stolen. Hook in right there, and you have the offending item and the merchant together. That makes deleting the stolen reference easy, surely, either from item or merchant? All you need then is a suitable timer method, which could be handled by a script in the trader cell activated on a successful steal, possibly. And depending on what the reference is attached to, you then have the option to recursively delete all other stolen references at the same time, making it a one-stop clean-up for that merchant.

However, none of this would affect the stolen references hanging around (apparently) for dead NPCs. That information should be deleted or suppressed on or after their death. And it's also pointless keeping stolen data when the "owner" is "Great House Hlaalu" etc. who you can't sell back to. That sort of generic ownership information should be discarded if possible in the first place.

Another way to handle this would be by introducing some steal relief at the low end while keeping the current system for more expensive items. So basically the trader can't notice an item is stolen if it costs less than, say 100GP. That makes things more realistic than being hounded for an indistinguishable marshmerrow stalk, for instance, while making sure that decent armour and weapons stays hard to steal and resell. That could again be hooked at the point of stolen detection in barter, testing the item value, but if you're doing that then you could just as well implement a time-based system to remove the reference entirely for the future.

The stolen item information is a NPC/faction list attached to the item template (the item definition). Ownership info is part of the reference extra data.

There's no way to add data to existing structures, it will break any function that allocates or copies structures, causing a crash unless every point is identified and screws up stack frames on temporary structures. And you can't save it in a compatible savegame.

I'm not disagreeing over whether it is or isn't a fix, in fact I think it is a fine addition to the patch. I was just discussing the mechanics, so I don't see the problem at all. Balance is entirely subjective.


Like I said. Hammerspace.


Well, if I knew everything that needed testing, I could give it a try. Still, as long as people are aware of it, and it can work, I say go for it. People are already making mods that need the MCP anyway.


I didn't think about fatigue at all... The damage seemed consistent. Though let us be honest, the damage portion of the elemental shields is practically unnoticeable in vanilla.


Oh, I don't think I knew you actually had to change cells for it to clean, just that it won't if you are in the cell. But you know what I meant anyway.

I'm all for enabling fHoldBreathEndMult, by the way. There isn't any other way to modify the amount of time you can hold your breath, is there?


There is a GMST, fSwimHeightScale, that determines when the breath meter displays. it is set. to 0.9000 by default.


Does this mean that we can't remove the data also?

    * MCP program updated. Redates BSAs automatically. ESMs look like they are localization specific so I'm not touching them. Detects upgrades of Russian text.dll and repatches them.

Ein?! What files are affected by the patch? I thought that just Morrowind.exe, but now I am seeing that not only.

But the game does - when you steal an item it adds the NPC ownership data to it. So it must be possible to reverse that process and remove it safely, there must be a function or process for that.

The problem with the stolen ownership is that this really ought to be something that could be handled variably by scripting, but because they decided to simplify it they left no hooks in for scripts to access. Scripts can't know when items were stolen, and can't update the stolen info. This means it has to work through code patching, but as you say, there are no "spare" data slots available to store the date-stolen info.

But scripting would provide the data slot simply by adding a variable to the trader, so can't we add a script-compatible persistent variable just like a script would from within code? That also allows scripts to provide custom dialogue if a trader is still "hurting" from recently being stolen from... Then, at the barter transaction point, if the variable exists, you can use the value (the date of the last steal, updated on a successful steal) to determine whether the trader has "forgotten", allowing you to clear the data on the item right there. If the variable doesn't exist, you fall back to the current system. That way current savegames work just as before.

So the other hook point would be where an item is successfully stolen - adding the script variable to the trader (if it IS a trader, since this is all immaterial if you can't sell back to the NPC) and/or updating the value with the current game day. All that then leaves is a game setting for how long until traders "forget", which could be an option setting in MCP's setup.

To make this more balanced and even more realistic, you could modify it so that if a trader ever detects you stealing something, this date-setting variable is set to a negative value, and if it is negative it never gets updated further. Then at the barter point, previously stolen items would never get reset, so you'd have the current system unchanged for that trader - they'd never trust you again. That makes more sense of the current unrealistic paranoid system. You could also set this "always remembers" option if you try to sell back a truly unique item you've stolen from them (probably has "unique" in the name, or other tests may work).

You know, on the point of drowning, why is it that creatures don't? Now, it makes sense for aquatic creatures not to drown, but the rest? Can this be changed? We can cast water breathing/walking on our pack guars.

Just to say also, that wizards can swim. Hmph.

Edit

Just wanted to say that saving the game while sneaking keep you in sneak when loading. Not a big deal, but you might want to warn people in the patch description. Wouldn't want to load a game and get caught.

I have also noticed that when a merchant is not set to barter for enchanted items, they will anyway as long as they can barter for the non-enchanted varieties. So, to stop them from bartering for magic items, they can't accept otherwise similar mundane items either. The reverse is not true, however. They will barter for weapons, armor, books and clothes when only set to barter for magic items.

I have absolutely nothing useful to contribute to the conversation right now. I just wanted to come and say "hi" to Hrnch.

That's kind of point of testing, you don't know what the problems are and if they break the main quest unless you play through it all with every mod. Companion could ruin it, some kind of AoE scripted spell could ruin it, the NPC could bleed out while in dialogue, anything.


There's the normal fHoldBreathTime. Endurance doesn't appear to be a good stat to scale against.



Russian version dll needs the checksum removed, Polish version needs font patching, Steam version needs ESM redate.



It creates totally inconsistent expectations with mods. You have to check the NPC source mod to see if their script has been patched but not overwritten by another mod before you can be sure of trading stolen goods with them.



They don't even path properly in water, and won't enter it.



Saw one of 'em in 'Nam. The jungle burned bright that day, but trust me, they can't swim.



Yo.

Well, yes, I know. I just thought that you probably had some general ideas of things that would most likely cause problems. Much of the testing I have done has been during normal gameplay. And how will we know unless we test anyway? Maybe I'm just ignorant to the way it all works, but I would think if menu mode is called that scripts would mostly work even if the game continues to play. I can see some instances where combat might start before the dialogue window is closed, but that could be fixed in the scripts or the dialogue I imagine...

It's the same with stolen items. Gotta test. Right?


The problem there, is that fHoldBreathTime affects everyone the same. It seems that fHoldBreathEndMult is the only thing that can modify it. Of all the stats to scale against, Endurance seems the most appropriate, really.


I just got that guar drinking by the pond near Pelagiad to follow me in. It was totally underwater. Combat stopped with a kwama forager when I entered the water just straight ahead from the path out of Seyda Neen to Pelagiad though. I guess most animals wouldn't follow you into the water, but it still seems wrong if they can't get in and drown anyway.


But they have magicks! Whoa wait. There were wizards in Vietnam?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs2DsoiA54Y

No, no I haven't. But now I have. I don't keep up well with this kind of stuff anymore, for some reason.

I've gotten solstheim wolves to follow me in combat all the way from hirstaang forest to the http://www.liquidanvil.com/mw/screenshots/solstheim_wolf_in_west_gash.jpg (yasammidan) - they seem quite capable swimmers.

It's been awhile since that happened, but IIRC started off combat levitating. That may have helped induce the wolf into the water. And once the AI targets the player, they won't bother with paths.

The usual way to deal with a stolen item that's giving problems is to fire up enchanted Editor, open the save game and remove the item from the list of stolen items. Not a problem.

The games' handling of stolen items is a bit primitive, so it doesn't surprise me Hrnchamd feels there is nothing that can be done to help here.

I don't know if this has been suggested already, but would it be possible to have Morrowind save screenshots as PNG instead of BMP files? That would be a massive timesaver as I end up converting all of my screenshots individually.

Anyway, great work so far guys! I think what makes this brilliant is the way all of the modifications are optional. Thank you for making it that way

MGE saves screenshots in BMP JPEG DDS PNG and even TGA formats. Why not to use its functions instead?

a way to identify when an item is owned by someone else?
Perhaps like in oblivion, changing the cursor color, or even the normal Toggle Full Help effect would be good, without the visible scripts on the items though.
I know this is possible using a mod that requires MGE, but I wonder if would be possible without the extender.
:)