No, they can't. They can pass on parts of that culture (the parts that affected them and shaped them into what they are), but the culture as a whole cannot be, simply because one person cannot know an entire culture - you couldn't pass on your own culture to anybody no matter how hard you tried simply because your exposure to your own culture is limited... And even further, somebody from a different culture sure couldn't pass on another culture regardless of their practical knowledge of it...

Children never decide what kind of society theirs is - their molded by what they're told growing up and even if they do stop and say 'lets make our own society', the creation of that society will still be governed by the social rules that they were taught, they'll just take a different spin on them. Furthermore, that they would decide even further separates them from anything 'Dwemeri'...

Your statement is only true given the context that the culture being learnt about is there to experience...

This statement makes no logical sense as an argument - not only is it irrelevant (since pain in the physical sense isn't an emotion either) and counterproductive for you own argument to state that hunger is a feeling like pain (since that negates it being an emotion), but you also fail to make any actual argument whatsoever. Rather, you simply just restate that 'hunger is an emotion' (hint: adding in the words 'intensity of' doesn't make the statement any more valid).

Well, if we suppose that the Dwemer had a specific martial art there is still a lingering problem. While Yagrum almost certainly had - and probably has again - the intellectual capacity to write a manual about it, without access to people practicing it he cannot write more than he personnally knows about it.

Yagrum was not the repository of the knowledge of everithing dwemer to begin with. Worse, he has forgotten a lot. He needed some Rosetta stone to translate texts written in his native tongue !

Dwemer culture is mostly dead and forgotten, and attempting to recreate it from the few sparse bits available is doomed to fail.

Culture is created by the living of it. And every generation represents a change in that culture. I do not advocate duplication of the entire previous Dwemer culture ... but something precious might be saved - not only the race that Kagrenac in his imbacile lusting after power deleted, but also those aspects of that culture that the survivors deem of value.

If clones are created from a Dwemer and the clones are brought up in Dwemer surroundings by Dwemer then they will be different from previous Dwemer according to their natures and those of their tutors and yet they will still be Dwemer. You are trying to claim that all there is of a nation or a people is its past and condmn them to 'oblivion' on that basis - sad.

As for the 'Rosetta Stone' - it might be that it it easier to speak in other mer dialects than it is to translate Dwemeri concepts - it may be that the texts hewas translating were in some way coded or that they were in a differrent dialect from his own. Lastly yes it has been 4,000yrs - and yes, you can forget a lot in that time - but again it may be that Yagrum wanted an excuse not to translate Dwemer writings ...

I se it from another perspective ... one person's experience is sufficient to give a baby a start ... and we have 2 people of that culture available - one of whom might benefit from reincorporation into a cloned body and the other who is clearly a damn sight more capable as a so-called mentally impaired individual than about 99% of the people I met in Morrowind ... but more importantly cultures grow. It is preposterous to lay the debt of an entire culture on a few individuals ... but great nations do grow from small groups. and if they choose to grow differently from their forbears?

I direct you to the previous statement in this post - and would ask whether you also advocate the killing of other remnants of past cultures?

Not exactly what i said ... you're not quite answering my statement are you? Let's just say that children are the culture and when they grow up they have more say in what happens. And each succeeding generation always separates itself from previous generations and to the extent that it pleases them even rejects their parents wisdom or follies - so what's different?

Well all a baby knows about is whoever holds it ... and then it learns about whoever is around it ... etc. Widening experience from a restricted center ... from Darwinian mode to Lamarkian ... all is change. So in a controlled environment they can be surrounded by Dwemer culture and artifacts at the start and go on to learn about other cultures too ... what's changed?



The full post that this refers to is this:


so Luargar, your reply: "Hungry isnt an emotion" does not seem so useful in this debate as a whole and I feel that hungry is an emotion - it is a form of desire certainly and so intense and involved in its complexity that it is more than a mere pysical pain such as is produced by a cut ... also we talk about emotional hungers - well some of us do

Sorry, but it appears that you've just dog-in-the-mangered and ended with an irrelevant distraction.

If you had argued that you personally do not like the idea I would feel more sympathetic to your viewpoint -

What is being suggested n this thread is that great trees from little acorns do grow. And to delete an entire race without giving them a chance is an act of total barbarity entirely foreign to RL. How you feel that works in Tamriellian culture and morality you tell me. But you will still be someone in this modern day society advocating genocide for another culture that may not have been as negative as 'history' has painted them. It is oh soo convenient to say that the defeated were monsters ... sometimes it is just as hard for the victors to avoid what they accuse others of. Given this is partially about about personal preference I do not see Bagrum as being totally emotionless and I believe that he would make a fine example fo ran small re-emergent post-dwemeri society - I stand with life.

All you are saying is: Because a small group cannot reproduce the entirety of the culture do not let them live - and that's not really a very healthy thing to say.

What I mean is that so much was lost that any attempted "re-creation" will end up different enough from the original that calling them by the same name is IHMO foolish and misleading.

The result will be distant relatives, maybe feeling a connection to a remote past, but not Dwemers, the same way as today's Italians are not Romans.

I'm sorry, but we don't have 2 genuine Dwemer. We have one dead Dwemer, and a half dead Dwemer. I highly doubt that between there lies the entirely of all Dwemer knowledge.

And a martial arts, warfare, weapons use and strategy cannot be simply learned by reading about them. There isn't some akashic record wherein all knowledge lies.

My take on is is pretty simple : would the result of the attempt be considered dwemer by the dwemers who dissapeared (in the 'these guys are some of us' sense)

In the strict physical sense, probably.

As far as culture go, I seriously doubt it. Too much of their culture and science was wiped out to enable a meaningfull reconstruction.

'pologies Dahrken - that's quite cool - they would indeed turn out different and I would expect them to adopt a different name for themselves just as the Chimer became the Dunmer, and all the other mer changed their names from Aldmer etc -quite a thing they have about renaming themselves - almost human Us calling them Dwemer is simply convenience.



k - we have one genuine live Dwemer Planes Walker ... does that suggest anything to you? To me it suggests someone quite extraordinary. So extraordinary that he survived (according to someone's earlier post here) 4,000yrs of coprus? Absolutely astonishing!!! I fear you are totally underestimating his nature and capabilities ... and after 4,000yrs he is still very much alive, cognisent, intellectually developed and far more deadly than the average mer.

Come to think of it he has to be one hell of a lot closer to ascending than he is to dying

I must admit I did not fight him as I know who my friends are - but I hear he is very hard to kill

The other - the Spirit likewise has to be an extraordinary individual to be as sane as he appears - maybe we are giving the Novadwemeri too much education eh?

Manu - your take definitely has merit. The beliefs of the 'parent culture' are important and so I have to believe that the knowledge of the clones might have a powerful effect on the remaining Dwemer Specters ... no idea if any of the insane ones could return to sanity though and that could make another hell of a quest - escorting the children to meet their 'ancestors'.

Once again I see the other part of your statement from a different angle in that I believe that the important factor here that is it all depends on the 'personal' nature of those individual clones/children as to how much they enjoy and are capable of learning.

There would undoubtedly be a mass of knowledge lost ... but new ideas and skill would grow with those children, and they would hand their lessons on to their children etc ... in this instance it is the new culture that counts and the real trial would be do the children have the strength of character and wisdom to accept this?

No one has yet touched on the real battle they would face = to accept or reject their 'parent culture' and how.

The point is that if they did it differently they wouldn't be Dwemer...

False anology, get your logic right. I said nothing about killing remnants of past cultures, I said you can't recreate past cultures from remnants...

Note: This same statement can be applied to your acorn/genocide anology as well as your final statement so I'll leave off replying to them directly...

Again, false logic, your question assumes that there is Dwemer culture to surround them with, which there isn't...

Again, you're begging the question (meaning the only thing you do in your argument is restate your argument, you offer no support for yourself). Your statement says "I feel that hungry is an emotion - it is a [emotion] certainly and involved in its complexity that it is [an emotion]". Furthermore, you commit equivocation when you talk about 'emotional hungers', so again, false logic...

I do personally disagree with the idea however I have no need to argue my own case when you argue against your own through your lack of logic... Anything you create through cloning would not be Dwemer since we can't recreate that culture...

You may feel that way, but you provide no backing for it. Him being alive, able to think and intellectual don't make him expert on Dwemer culture nor does it negate that he's forgotten most of what he knew - also, that he is ' more deadly than the average mer' is so irrelevant to any argument presented in this thread that I hesitate to continue this discussion...

Please, I beg you, tell me how that has any relevance at all to whether or not Yagrum can pass on Dwemer culture. I'm not trying to be mean, I just really want to know what connection you're making there...

Am I wrong in thinking that the purpose of the discussion was to recreate the Dwemer? If so please tell me and I'll go away because you speaking of 'new culture' as if it's something to be desired in recreating the Dwemer draws me to believe that I missed something...

You're not giving any practical method a incorporeal ghost and Bagarn, who despite his longevity is, for all intents a purposes, a blob, to propagate and physically teach combative arts and practices of the Dwemer.

I agree, though, that through Fyr's Telvanni devilry, something could probably be created. To go on and postulate that Bagarn and the ghost could "recreate" the Dwemer culture, which spread itself in numerous places across the continent is absurd.

Luargar2 - apparently you have not read the whole thread. Re martial arts I was responding to the above and previous posts on the subject - I believe their argument was that there would be no one able to even teach the clones Dwemer martial arts and that therefore the clones could not learn anything significant of Dwemer Culture ... therefore I rebutted that I believe Bagrum to be a fine fighter and able to at least write about 'traditional' Dwemer fighting forms.


I think in the previous post I was responding to an aspect of what Manu and others, who want a small group to either encompass the whole of Dwemer culture or be considered total failures, had said. That is such an unreasonable proposition, so poo to that. Plus there was also the question of which direction such a NEW culture might take - and a question of whether the clones themselves would consider themselves Dwemer or have the maturity to see that the old culture had passed and that it would be up to them to forge a new beginning.

... and sorry to say this Luagar2, but picking bits out of a long and complicated piece, removing the supporting argument and presenting them out of context is not really useful or sound argument. If you have so little sympathy for the views of others then maybe you have missed the point of the argument you are trying to rebut entirely. You cannot effectively argue against what you do not want to understand.



I think the tread started with the proposition that:

Bagrum Yagrum and Divayth might create clones from Bagrum's cells (assuming there are a few that are clean of coprus or means could be found to make them usable) and the poster also wondered if that means might resore the Dwemer to their former glory. This became a discussion as to whether it would be possible to create such clones and whether certain people would support this and whatever else might be a factor in this.

Some were of the opinion that it would not be possible to create such clones

Another argument put forward (and no longer pursued) was that the surviving Dwemer Specters might all be re-incoporated and these reincorporated Dwemer might assist in establishing a massive new beginning, but I believe it is now accepted that not enough would be sane for that.

Also the totally against group stated through various arguments that even if it were possible to clone them, if the totality of Dwemer culture could not be restored, it would all be pointless. Also they argue that even basic Dwemer culture can only be taught by a massive Dwemer society otherwise it is not Dwemer.

SOME PEOPLE WHO WANT TO OPPOSE THE CLONING IDEA ARE SUGGESTING THAT other PEOPLE ARE STILL SAYING THAT THE ENTIRE DWEMER CULTURE WOULD BE RESTORED BY THIS MEANS - but that is not what I have been suggesting and I have not seen any such post by a pro-cloner recently.

Many have argued that neither Bargum nor Divayth would wish to even attempt to create Dwemer clones as either a matter of research or to give some sort of future for the Dwemer race.


~~~

The other side of the coin
The counter argument is that such a venture of cloning a small group should not be seen in the nature of an archealogical or anthropological reconstruction or to re-establish or duplicate all that has gone before - but rather to create a new beginning for these innocent children. And further that there are known characters who might be capable of assisting in restoring some significant and useful part of Dwemer culture to these children.

NO ONE WHO CURRENTLY SUPPORTS THE CLONING IDEA IS SUGGESTING THAT BY THIS MEANS THE ENTIRE DWEMER CULTURE AND CIVILISATION WOULD BE RESTORED.

What has been suggested is such a small group of New Dwemer would have rights and needs of their own - and they might even choose a new name for themselves as part of their new start - they would still be themselves, and still be of the Dwemer Race (even with a new name and culture) and given the superlative support they would have available would have a great chance to make something special of themselves - with wonderful potential for the future should fortune smile. Also they would be able to learn much about the old Dwemer from their progenitors Bagrum (and Divayth) and whatever Specters (we know of one) remain sane in the old Dwemer municipalities.

The argument continues that it would be more sensible to seek out any sane Dwemer Specters such as the one that assisted in the Sword Quest ... and I also suggest that knowledge of the clones and the possibility of freedom from their current state might give strength to some of the surviving Spectres enough that they might return to sanity. In which case they might be reincorporated in further clones and wish to help with the education of the children.

Also such a small group might with luck live long, prosper and over time build up into a significant racial grouping once more - though I imagine they would always thereafter value their privacy. And they might do marvellous things ...

Essentailly I am supporting a view that there are limitations and an envelope that might be pushed and that doing so would be worthwhile and produce marvellous results, even though it would not restore the entire race.

Being able to slap people in-game doesn't mean he knows jack about martial arts...

If it's a new culture, then its not Dwemer culture, regardless of what the clones think - that's the point...

I don't take them out of context, I isolate the pivotal parts of your argument so that my posts aren't huge blocks of texts - I could keep it all in there but that would just look ugly... besides, much of it is often repetitive or irrelevant. And please, if I have taken something out of context point it out. It's not help to just accuse me of taking something out of context and then not telling me what... & I believe it's you who out of my entire post picked out an entirety of three lines, ignoring the other points...

You make the assumption that they would still be Dwemer even with a new name and culture, despite that having a new culture is exactly what would make them not Dwemer. You have yet to make an argument concerning how they would be Dwemer when they're nothing like the Dwemer...

Not really innocent. Even Bagarn, as aid to Kagrenac was a contributor to the absolute blasphemy and consequent demise of the Dwemer race. You might think you're politically correct, or what demagogy you are, but gods aren't.



Why are you talking as if this actually some marvelous process of wonderment going on here? The original Dwemer removed themselves from reality, if this "new Dwemer race" is the same, then they would soon be heading along that track again.

You're just pasting it all in honey.



... Which cannot happen, as the ghosts would kill the children. 4000 years of partial existence and insanity and a little interaction with some children will suddenly warm there hearts up again?



The last race of Dwemer valued their privacy, but but trod on the privacy of the divine. I really dont think you are thinking this through culture-logically - there's no way present Morrowind society would abide it at all.

I don't know about the other pro-cloners, but i've been calling them Dwemer simply out of convenience.

May I suggest that we separate the two cultures with a new name? New Dwemer or Neo-Dwemer works, but what about Proweler's "Yagrummer" back on page 2?

Of course, I don't think anyone's really denying that Divayath would be able to at least clone something.

This thread has spiraled completely out of control and into the realms of insanity. And not in a funny/mythy kind of way.

Seriously; cloning?



This sounds so very profound. Too bad it's absolute quackery.

Ignoring the fact that you're forming hypothetical situations within hypothetical situations, let's play along: suppose you take a cloned Dwemer baby and lock him up in a room full of shiny Dwemer artifacts. You have 2 Dwemer locked in with him to facilitate his "cultural indoctrination": Yagrum, who was a Tonal Architect (the equivalent of a theoretical quantum physicist), and a Dwemer ghost dude who likes to haunt things because it's a ghost. What in sixteen hells do you think would make either of these two individuals have any kind of cultural "common sense"? And, more importantly, won't a Dwemeri child kind of be, oh, I dunno, mentally retarded if it was locked in a room for the greater part of its young life?

Not that it matters, anyway, because we're talking about cloning and pop psychology in a myth-based fictional setting. Also, this idea is incredibly BATW -- in fact, it crosses the line from BATW and traverses into the territory of "utterly inane and a waste of conversational space." So there.

And, in conclusion, I really hope this doesn't count as a flame, because none of these attacks are ad hominem. If, for some reason, they do, then I think I've lost my faith in humanity.

What exactly do you have against cloning? Is it that I suggested it or is it that it has already been done by Divayth Fyr? If you did not know that. If you did not know that Divayth has four wives living with him that he cloned from his own body then I suggest that you have never played Morrowind and have not read this thread.

You might be thinking in terms of either creating an isolation environment or a torture chamber ... whatever turns you on - I'm thinking in terms of renovating an entire underground colony at the max or simply creating a new, normal Dwemer habitation suitable for whatever number of baby/child clones and adequate support is decided upon. This is a problem? You could not have thought in these terms yourself? Or is it as you suggest that you are deliberately talking nonsense?

Are you also saying that Tonal Architects and Quantum Physicists are a danger to children? Then I expect that you will be lobbying for laws to neuter them all? And naturally in your own country you will be organising mass demonstrations outside the homes of any Quantum Physicists that dare to marry without permanent neutering! So where are you really coming from?

As for 2 Dwemer ... I see nothing against hiring other beings of other races ... etc, etc ... blah - read what was written earlier.

Hard for me to know what your post is about really. The possibilities seem to be: either you did not read the thread so you are not in a position to comment; or you did and either what you are doing is rubbishing based on deliberate misrepresentation and what you have said is nonsense and therefore boring;. or you are not very good at reading ... :roll eyes: Please do me a favour and keep it simple and sensible.

Oh and about pop-culture??? Well if Pelinal is SF (and you beat me about the head because I felt it was being interpreted in a way that was too sf) then what are you on about?



Again I would suggest that you are doing what Adventurous Putty did - ignoring what was said before: According to documents I read Kagrenac did all the removing and against the will of the Dwemer - the King of a Nation is the Will of the Nation so Dumac is Dwemer and Kagrenac (the priest of no God but himself) staged a one man revolt and defied him and the entire Nation. Also, as has been said before, Kagrenac was not simply mad - he was a genius and hardly representative of the Dwemer people. He also acted in opposition to the proper government - rather like a scientist who decides to create and to test a 10,000 megatonne hand held bomb in secret and sets it off before the government troops can arrive to prevent him. Ooops - does that mean the entire nation is mad - or just one hokerr?

Also your suggestion the children would just head along the same track has nothing to substantiate it in any case. Biological beings are not programmed to that extent by their cells ... that's just nonsense. And as a couple of your lot have already suggested, the massive changes in Bagrum's nature due to his illness and involvement of non-Dwemer would mitigate that in any case. I don't think you guys can have it both ways there - criticising a recreation of the Dwemer becuase they would no longer be emotionless and then rejecting a recreation of them on the grounds that they would be emotionless ...

I suggest if you're that worked up you all calm down and take a look at what we're all really trying to say - and accept that we are saying that Dwemer were not robots, and should not be made into robots. Anyone would think you guys are confusing the Dwemer with their creations ...

If you take a look at the Wall-Art in Vivec there is a fascinating drawing of what appear to be small beings ... it might shed a new light on the actual nature of the Dwemer. ... and maybe you ought to go through all the letters, scattered about Morrowind, that are written by Dwemer to each other and about their civilisation. In their normal lives they are not at all as people have been trying to paint them in this thread - they have hopes, aspirations, appreciation of beauty and a sense of family, honour etc, etc. Again one wonders if you actually played Morrowind - and surely you cannot have read all the books and notes there.



You cannot be serious. What do you think it takes to make a Planes Walker in the Elderscrolls? Do you even accept that Bagrum Yagrum is a Planes Walker? Um - I read numerous stories from gamers who were defeated by Yagrum - so that means Yagrum was able to defeat the Nerevarine. And fairly high level chars at that - did you ever fight him? Surely you played Morrowind ... or maybe you are now getting on a bit and just forget things like me?





I suspect that you too have succummed to the sin of repetition So I give you 1 reply to your 2 paragraphs: If a Dwemer teaches it, it is Dwemer ... and if a Dwemer decides to teach a New Dwemer way who are you to say it is not Dwemer? If you do not want this to happen no matter what then what does it matter to you if they are Dwemer in the ancient tradition or Dwemer following a new tradition?

We are simply being pragmatic about this and looking at what might happen based upon what was and is ... we allow for what has come to be and seek options. We do not want to change Morrowind as it was. We simply seek ways that might add something to what Morrowind and Tamriel might become.

Given all the 'horror stuff' in-game that so many enjoy I really fail to see why if all this turns out disastrously that would upset you and the opposition you have allied yourself with in this thread. An expansion including this would then be either more of the downside that doomsayers seem to love ... or if this was set into a really good scenario there should be possibilities for it to turn out along any number of the paths (good/bad/successful/failed) that have been discussed in this thread. That's what really good quest creation is actually about ES-style.

A better retort to Luggar et al, is that no society is purely homogeneous in culture.


Take for instance:

The bhuddist priest.

The Jehova's Witness door to door pamphlet hander.

The Orthodox Jew.

and The Krishna.


All of these people live, work, and play in the United states in this example. All of them are "American." Culturally, they are as different as purple is to orange or green.


Given that Resdain (sp? I forget..) was populated by Dwemer, Chimmer, and bordered with the Nordic territories, it is ABSURD to place the dwemer explicitly into a homogeneous little box of "Dwemer culture."

It is also, likewise absurd to think of it as a static and ever unchanging concept, as this is clearly violated by the precipitating notion that the culture EVOLVED from ancient Aldmeris culture.

Take for instance: being an "American" today is radically different from being an "American" 50 years ago.

I'm not going to try and tackle all of that. You are not focusing on the actual points of contention, instead you are simply presenting your stream of consciousness and passing it off as argument and answer.

;What does Dumac have to do with this? "Will of the People?" This isn't Hegel, this is Dwemer. None of that matters. As for Kagrenac "disobeying Dumac" and obstinately, the Will of the People, none of us know about the intimate internal Dwemer politics between the king and the tonal priesthood.

;As I see that anything goes in this argument, even using gameplay elements as evidence, then; all members of a race share intimately similar qualities, such as skills and powers and other bootlick similarities. Therefore all clone Dwemer will be of the same race and before. It is more than probable that the new Dwemer will head down their old path, as it is intrinsic to all mer to reject and seek the higher forms before the Dragon- such as the Altmer. The Dwemer went about this by removing themselves, the Altmer wish to do it by removing the towers and unfurling the Dragon.

;Yes. I'd say Tonal Priests are warped and dangerous people. Just like Moth Priests need to sacrifice their sight to experience the Elder Scrolls, we cannot guess as to what the Tonal Architects needed to sacrifice to go near the Heart.

;Yes. I do not think Tonal Architects should go near children. I also think that they never had any children and were not interested in the slightest with children.

;What art wall in Vivec? The Temple wouldn't allow for that, and your romanticism of what little information we have on the Dwemer is becoming tiresome. The murals are of the Chimer following Veloth to Resdayn, and tapestries of the Three.


;; As for this "Plane Walker" business. It doesn't make you automatically uber. That he can "spent a while in Oblivion" means nothing, as we know we can get to Oblivion pretty easily anyway, and the passage doesn't do to much to us, or anything at all. We did it countless times in Oblivion, we went to Magas Volar in Morrowind, spent the entire game in Oblivion during Battlespire, and Uriel Septim was imprisoned in Oblivion as Jagar Tharn ran amuck in Arena.

Nobody cares about cloning, the argument isn't against cloning, it's against what the product of that cloning would produce...

I can accept that "Planes Walker" is a proper name you've made up and seem to attach too much value to. Can you please tell me why being able to travel between planes has anything to do with martial arts or being an able fighter??? I'll go on to point out that being able to defeat the Nerevarine in combat means absolutely nothing, since it's entirely possible for the Nerevarine to have been a theif with no combat-skill whatsoever... and still, Yagrum being tough in-game doesn't translate to any type of martial arts, much less being able to teach them...

I'll repeat myself one more time in some vain hope I won't have to do it again - I've made no argument for or against cloning (that point is irrelevant, so please stop talking about what I want). I'm stating, regardless of my personal preference, that you cannot recreate Dwemer culture through the limited access we have to it and that whatever this 'new Dwemer culture' is will be Dwemer in nothing other than namesake... A Dwemer may teach some Dwemer knowledge, but doing so would make the pupils no more Dwemer than I am Indian for studying Indian culture...

Are you aware of what culture is (again, I honestly want to know, I'm not just being mean)? I hesitate to assume you do or else you would understand that it being 'new' defeats the entire purpose of associating it with any past society (in this case the Dwemer)...


What you provide is hardly a retort but it even serves to further my argument. I'll assume for the moment that I may continue to use 'culture' in the general sense for convenience's sake.

Yes, no society has a homogeneous culture, and that in and of itself therefore would make it even harder for it to be recreated; especially given (and I alluded to this earlier) that we only have one tiny fraction of that society to build off of (not to mention a highly specified fraction).

We may think of it as static and unchanging, for the primary reason that it is an extinct culture that hasn't changed for the past 3000 years. There is a solid template to build off of, however we only have a minuscule corner of it - what is absurd is to believe that anything resembling the original template can be created just by observing that corner (Yagrum and some ruins). It doesn't matter whether Dwemer culture is varied or whether it changed over time while it existed, it cannot be recreated as there is nothing to work with in that recreation (and before I hear more about Yargrum and the ghost, they can't pass on an entire culture, regardless of is lack of homogeneity)...

I really hate to waste more space, but I don't see the relevance of your final statement and it seems a false anology. To compare the evolution of American culture over a given time period and calling both time periods "American culture" is hardly anologous to having a recreation of an Ancient culture from a fragment of that culture and then calling both the new and old by the same name. Your example requires a continuous line of societal evolution, evolving naturally through its own development. The latter is a completely artificial evolution/recreation from the outside...

@ hymantar

Actually, the mural of the small, huddled persons behind the large one with the crazy hair is a depiction of Vivec protecting his followers while red mountain belched out ash. The same episode in dunmer history where the vivec ash mask came into being.

@luggar

Also, there are literally thousands of dwemer ghosts. If even 1% of these was sane like the Radac's forge ghost, that is still several hundred.

This is a sufficiently large statistical pool to get a cultural cross section.

The argument against change therefor still applies, as it was used to down the idea earlier in the thread, by suggesting that the experience of being revenents will have altered their behavior through a change in personal experience. DUH. No culture stands still. The culture is "Alive" in the form of ghosts who have noplace to go. There is more than one sentient ghost.


(Also, who is to say that the innate alien psychology of the ancient dwemer is in any way differentiable from madness to 'modern' men and mer? That WAS kinda the point of thier culture. being Inexplicable.)

Either way, it's not the Dwemer.

Edit: if someone could find it, though, I'd be grateful.

That's a harsh assumption. Not only is there the assumption of the possibility of there being other sentient ghosts (which, even if there are several hundred left good luck finding them), but then that they willing contribute to trying to recreate their society.

I hesitate to take seriously the comment that the Dwemer culture is still moving due to being alive through the ghosts - just because a passable 'culture' surviving in the isolation which the ghosts have 'lived' is not reasonable...


And just to be clear, I'm not arguing simply against being able to recreate Dwemer culture, but against being able to recreate any culture which has been extinguished...

How do you know that?

Its been - years, but I think the mural was in a West-facing stairwell - probably in the Foreign Quarter in Vivec - I used to rush past daily at times ... afraid that's the best I can do. I always thought it was to do with the Dwemer because the frightened-looking ones were so tiny by comparison.

From stuff I read in the 1960s I seem to remember that a normal sized genetic pool needs to be about 120 persons upwards to sustain an entire race ... recent studies have likely revised that ...

Please let me repeat that I am not talking about revising the entire Dwemer framework - so please stop arguining against me on those lines as it is meaningless ...

What I am talking about is a new beginning - something comparatively realistic if approached sensibly. A new beginning could include elements of more than one culture and yet be fundamentally representative of a certain aspect of the Dwemer. An English village is not England, but it is still English QED.

Well I was responding to the Putty-person who cleary did have a lot to say about cloning Luargar2 - unless you are saying that Putty is not a person ... interesting thought ... that must mean that Putty is an 'it'. What sort of it would Putty be?


Still Luargar2 I'm not sure why you are replying to me as though I am adressing you when I reply to the Putty-person. And it is clear how out of it his post was - he as much as admitted it himself.

RE Plains Walkers - I might well have originated that :shrug: but I do not think that your average incapable-of-serious- combat Tamriellian has a hope in Oblivion of surviving such an adventure - not given the attitude that Daedra have towards mortals.

You seem to suggest that a mere starter character could survive such a journey - may I rofl please? The first Scamp that happened by would either take him for dinner or as a slave = end of journey ... and I assume that you have actually fought some of the more ferocious Daedra?

Besides I think it was also pretty well established that Bagrum is a changed Dwemer ... and no run of the mill in-denial-fanatic-fundamentalist. More a serious student of the cosmos and sensible of those around him.

You guys have questioned whether Bagrum would want to do anything? Well, I would think that re-incorporating even one of his fellows from their spirit-form into one of his clones would mean much to Bagrum - and I for one believe that Divayth Fyr would gladly assist. They have been friends for quite a long time you know ... well 4,000yrs may not seem like much to you, but I am sure it does to Divayth.

To me this is just one thread that Morrowind did not take up, but that I always felt should have been followed and it's good to see there is some original thinking going on here.

The next step is obvious -the search for others after Radharc and if it works for Radharc - children.

As I said - a good quest/mod based around this would have to allow for several possible outcomes at every stage - including all the dire things that you guys have held so staunchly to - because no matter how much we hope that things will go well - they often go wrong instead.

An attitude such as been shown here - such that you will not even consider the posibility that such a venture might succeed -would do no credit to impartial intellectuals.

Even still, the most you can do is recreate a tiny fraction of Dwemer society based on Yagrum's experience (given he remembers it). Sure, it's based on some small bit of Dwemer but to call it Dwemer just because of that is wrong-headed...

False anology, an English village is founded by the English, not scientists trying to recreate what they think is an English village based solely on ruins and an impaired citizen who was himself removed from the the mainstream of what is 'English'...

You can create something with an aspect of Dwemeri to them, but they're no different than taking some random mer and raising them in Dwemer knowledge. They will for no intents and purposes be Dwemer...

I responded because if you'd care to pay attention to his argument (and mine), neither of us were arguing against cloning. Yes, we're talking about cloning, but only as a context. Both of us are arguing against the recreation of a culture, not against making a clone. That is why I responded to that statement and also because you were also accusing me of having something against cloning, which I addressed further down in my previous post but you chose not to respond to.

Please try to make an argument without putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about a starter character and I assume you're well aware of that, but having no legitimate argument must resort to irrelevant and petty diversions. I diverge, and will again point out that being able to travel between realms has no relevance to being able to fight; just to further bury this train of thought I'll point out that not all Daedra are bloodthirsty, not all realms are innately dangerous (as is shown by accounts we have of people traveling there), having metaphysical knowledge does not innately give him martial arts knowledge, it never says he went to Oblivion (it says the Outer Realms) and that if he did go to oblivion it's absurd to argue that he'd have to use some type of Dwemer martial arts to survive...

I'll also thank you for completely ignoring the rest of my argument...

I dont need to do it by myself. Here in lies the difficulty with your prospect.

If indeed *I* only find 2, those two can help me in my search. If each of them only finds 2, that is 4 more... in geometrical progression over time.

I did not say it would be easy, or practical, but in light of a better alternative, I dont see any possible alternative. I estimate the process would take at least 50 to 100 years to collect a sufficient number of dwemer spirits into one place to accomplish... Long after my death.

When these dwemer are brought together, they will naturally form a social group in a semblence of a refugee town. Personal relationships will form, and in time, the desire to procreate will naturally surface.

They themselves would do the baby napping and raising within the confines of this social circle. The reared children would then indeed be the children of dwemer, in the cultural context.


Hyamentar (On the number of ghosts): "How do you know this?"

Any population of the size suggested by the dwemer, no matter how long lived, will have many many people dieing at any given moment. A population large enough to dominate entire eastern half of Tamriel would have several hundred to a thousand dieing every second. (Assuming literary geographical sizes, and not game world mechanics sizes.) It took several seconds for Kagrenac to work his magic, and I am sure it takes more than a few seconds for a ghost to find its way to the dream sleeve after its body dies. (Or else, a soul trap spell would not function.) So, one MUST conclude that there are thousands of ghosts.