A question: are the words phenomena and noumena used in the game itself, or are you just using those philosophical concepts to explain the themes behind the Dwemer story?

Or, I guess a better question would be:

What books were the writers of Morrowind reading for inspiration?

Those exact words were used by Baladas Demnivani.

For some the list of what they didn't read would be shorter.

For Micheal Kirkbride I know that there are bits of Baudrillard and Jung floating about. There also is stuff from Crowley involved and various other occult sources though aside from Gnosticism I can't confirm any of that personally.

I don't know what Douglass reads, though he usually talked about allot of ancient occult stuff but that was probebly related to the context of the discussion.

As for Ken Rolston and Kurt Khulman and the others, I don't have any clues. Todd doesn't read much.

It could be that the cloning process duplicates memories as well, which would give them ample room to care, however if not... why do the Israelis and Palestinians fight each other? Because their parents and society brought them up to believe that the other should get the heck out of their country, among other things. Hatred breeds hatred, and such.
Yagrum Bagarn would be very likely to teach his children/grandchildren the ways of the Dwemer, and some of those children may develop the belief that Morrowind is rightfully theirs.
Then there's the well-known fact that Dunmer loathe outsiders. The majority of dark elves would not look kindly to a group of "foreigners" trying to say that Morrowind is equally theirs. Hostile Dunmer would create hostile Dwemer. It's a whole vicious cycle.

Either way, their identity crisis could prove to be a very interesting topic to explore. That's all i'm sayin'.

Only the Dwemer can create Dwemer. Yagrum is but a Dwemer, one small part of a whole society that raises the Dwemer. Using Yagrum as a template would create Yagrummer. They'll know what Yagrum knows, see the world as he does, but that is only the view of one of a thousand Dwemer. Perhaps these views are quite related to the Dwemer but not actually Dwemer, not anymore.

Aside from that these Yagrummer will have the knowledge that they are trying to act like Dwemer, they'll know that they were cloned or otherwise appeared into the world. They'll know the Dwemer were gone. All those things already set them apart from the Dwemer as it will influence their view of the world. No Dwemer ever asked himself "What would the Dwemer do?". No Dwemer would ever desire not to be a Dwemer.

Not impossible. Theory. ;P
Nothing in Morrowind says anything about Dwemer cloning for or against, so you can't say that Divayath would or wouldn't clone Yagrum. Besides, if it was so painstaking, why would he do it four times? You'd think he'd stop at once.

That said, proweler, you make some very good points. However, i've said this many times before, they might have different beliefs and customs, but they're still technically Dwemer. Ashlander and Great House Dunmer have completely different societies, but they're still the same race. Altmer and Chimer were probably the same, too, at least initially. It's no doubt the environment of Vvanderfell contributed heavily to their development into their own distinct race.

Any differences between the Dwemer and the Yagrummer (love that name, btw) would arise after the Yagrummer develop their own, distinct styles of doing magic, not to mention their own ways of handling their environment. For the first few generations, they'd have no reason to be different to the Dwemer.

Just to reiterate, there is no reason to assume that "culture" should be synonymous with "race".

The Ashlanders are not a separate part of the Dunmer culture. At least no more then the Telvani and Redoran are separate from each other. They share the same believes and the same history. Their differences have come from the different influences and opinions they went through and they are the rear guard of what is effectively a changing society. Something the Yagrummer would lack.

I suppose I could make more arguments why recreating the Dwemer as a culture just inst feasible, though that doesn't do anything about your point of merely cloning them.

I feel that it ignores that which sets the Dwemer apart from all the other Aldmer; their culture. You might have cloned a Dwemer, but when people talk about the Dwemer they also mean their culture. This is what made Dwemer are fascinating, their knowledge and views set them apart.

Merely cloning the Dwemer won't bring that back, it will create a poor illusion of the Dwemer being back until you look at them for a while and realize that they're nothing like the Dwemer you imagined. They are how the Dwemer saw the world, a poor copy of an even worse concept. Leaving nothing but a big disappointment.

Well put. They would be Dwemer in the fact that they came from a Dwemer. However, they would act nothing like the dwarves of Resdayn because they have not had the cultural experiences and technological research that made the Dwarves different from the other elves of Tamriel. They would most likely assume the culture and influences of whatever society you put them in. The 'disappearence of the dwarves' pretty much made them a sterile and nearly extinct race.

Alright, I'm going to make my point very blunt,
Bethesda killed of the Dwemer because if they lived on TES would eventually become a Sci-Fi FPS, which is not what TES is. Dwemer were becoming to Advanced, creating gods, discovering inter-dimensional travel. These are all elements of Sci-Fi, and Bethesda wanted TES to remain Fantasy.

Dwemer are still awesome, but so were the Sload, Chimer, Aylied, and quite possibly, the Dreugh.
Making them extinct just makes TES more awesome...

Your point didn't hit the target. It probably fell off the shaft laughing.

VXSS is Divayth. If he says it's not within his power, then it's not within his power.


That has got nothing to do with it. There is a decent amount of sci-fi in the series without the dwemer.

Still does not nullify my approach, of incarnating dwemer specters into animunculus bodies.

Considering how ancient these ghosts are (merethic age!) I'd say that something seriously powerful is preventing them from being processed by the dreaming sleeve. This means that they will have retained their memories.

Their "I will kill you on sight!" behavior could be anologous to the immortal specters seen in Battlespire, who are "insane" from the lack of sensory information that the revenant body form imposes on the consciousness. Putting the conciousness into an animunculus body with suitable sensory systems would solve that problem for them.

After that, they could teach any other random mer how to be dwemer in the PROPER context. Baby-snatched altmer being a good candidate.......

Just because this attitude can't be beaten on enough.

The difference between Sci-Fi and Fantasy isn't all that big. It might seem that way when you compare Star Treck/Wars and Lords of the Rings, but there is allot of middle ground to cover.

David Moles wrote a short story "Finisterra" about a Nitrogen-Oxigen gas giant inhabited by a floating whales the sizes of islands, covered with Brazilian Jungle. These Zaratan are kept afloat by giant internal bags of Hydrogen Eventually they age and sink down into the gas giant, until they are crushed by the pressure. In the story the small Zaratan are hunted like whales for the flesh by poachers. This however threatens all live on the planet as there aren't enough young Zaratan to replace the old ones.

If you ignore all the scientifically colored explanations for why things are that way, another explanation could have been "magic" or "that's how things are" this story is nothing less fantastical then the average JRPG that involves flying castles. Perhaps even more so because these details make it all the more clear that a such an illogical world can exist.

So in short, the idea that this must be a fantasy game ignores what both fantasy and science-fiction are about. Wonder.

As Arthur C. Clarke put it:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

:P

Well, how about the fact that he says "impossible", and then immediately changes it to "unlikely"? (red= impossible, blue= still possible)


I've debated enough to know a sloppy argument when I see it.



That is a pretty cool concept, though i'm afraid I didn't have time to reply to your original reply. Baby-snatching Altmer is also cool... (although theres my thing about culture not equalling race, but I suppose all the Meric races were basically Altmer originally) makes me wonder if any Wild Elves have done this to keep their numbers up? I mean, is there a difference between a Heartland High Elf and a regular High Elf?

I don't get how that should be a reason we should ignore VXSS/Divyath.

I'm not ignoring him at all! That quote helps my argument. VXSS admits to making assumptions (the first two words of the third sentence) and calls it "highly unlikely", which does not in any way equate to being impossible.

Does it matter? We got an answer, and it's clear.

Clear that while unlikely, is still possible, which ultimately proves nothing.

It took three pages to reach a "maybe, but probably not"? For the sake of recreating a bunch of people who've got the same genes as some guy who barely remembers who he is, resulting in something like trying to resurrect http://www.baldinoart.com/foto-GIANFRY/collegate/Celt-Warrior-full.jpg but inevitably getting http://www.football-wallpapers.com/wallpapers/celtic_4_1024x768.jpg?

It'd more useful getting Altmer to grow beards and take up some form of inscrutable numerosophy. But reconstructionism is fruity romanticised pseudo-history for roleplayers who seek to put their own cultural stamp on ancient beliefs. And this topic is like the orientalism of makeup cultures. Colonialism of the imaginary. That's why the idea of bringing the Dwemer back svcks, not just in method, but in intent.

What makes you think I would want to play as a dwemer?

I a more interested in seeing what would happen if they had a second chance to attempt causing the Aurbis to have a divide by 0 error. they got thwarted last time. I'd like to see what would happen if they could try again.

I wasn't referring to you, but the Orientalists may not have wanted to be oriental, either. Whether or not anyone wants to play as Dwemer is beside the point.

I resolved the issue of "The babynapped altmer dont want to be dwemer" by having them be raised by real dwemer. For all intents and purposes, they WOULD be dwemer. Through and through.

Personally, I'd think the dwemer ghosts have incentive to want to break the aurbis like Kagrenac tried to do with Numidium.... They cant be reincarnated, and they are experiencing a true living hell right now. I think if given the opportunity, they would jump on it like a chicken on a grasshopper.


You just dont want the dwemer to turn from a philosophical obscurity into the badguy dejour.

The only thing that distinguish Altmer, Ayleid and Direnni ("High Rock Altmers") is their different cultures. That is what makes them different "races". It was the same with the early Chimer, and those Chimer that still live in Summerset. Even so, it was their culture that later changed the Chimer into a different "race" (and I do not mean the change into Dunmer, by the way).
Thus, as I said before, the only difference between Altmer and Dwemer are the beards. Kinda.