Not sure if someone has linked this already but here it is: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=805080&st=0&start=0

Click the smile.

Well ain't that nifty, I made the exact same post in that thread as I did in this one...

Better is to draw a comparison with the dialog of the spirits from Soul Cairn in battlespire. namely,

"each mote of magicka spent deminishes our eternity."


In other words, they just cant expend the magicka, and by trying to roast your face off, they are actually harming themselves, suggesting that they dont actually WANT to roast you, so much as they are compelled to do so by your trespass, which may jeopardize their existences further.


Alternatively, they might not be able to pick up tools. No physical form, afterall.

Your argument is compelling indeed! All without the use of quote tags to directly address the reasons! Well, I'm convinced.

OK.

Anatomically and physically speaking, yes, they would be restored. Cutlurally, no.

I think our author was simply speaking that genetically, the race itself, the biological being, would be restored. If you want the "people" themselves, then you're 100% right.

Perhaps Yagrum could pass on his customs and knowledge. That would very well be the revival of the extinct race.

By the most holy and scruffy beard of Sheogorath, SOMEBODY GETS IT!

The point is, though, that Dwemer as a "biological" being wasn't and isn't very far from Altmer.
It's like comparing Brittish and Russians- it's the culture that makes the difference.

Which, just like British/Russian children, would be learnt from their mummies and daddies, who would in turn have learnt it from Divayath, Yagrum and possibly Vivec.

You missed my point, and perhaps I was not clear enough on what I meant.
Why would anyone want to go through the pain to create cloned "biological beings", when there already is Altmer? They would be so alike that it wouldn't matter.

Oh, I don't know... it's not like Yagrum Bagarn is desperately lonely and misses his people, and happens to be BFF's with an insanely powerful wizard who has it in his power to make his dream come true or anything.

Not to mention Divayath Fyr isn't at all the type of wizard who is curious enough to experiment with such a thing as playing god, and whose dearest and oldest friend happens to be the last of his kind.

No siree, there's no reason at all to do it.

Knowing that it really is possible for a one parent family to pass on culture to a number of children and a large culturre can spring from comparatively small groups - maybe it comes down in-game as to whether or not Yagrum Bagrum and Divayth Fyr ever talk about this as an option.

Such a New Dwemer Culture would undoubtedly share traits with the original and also diverge - both ways could produce healthy new directions. what remains on that score is if it is tried what gets written in as it could turn out any way. but I'm betting on Bagrum and Divayth.

The only sensible arguments here has to be on matters of taste and all the other stuff that Beth is up to = what fits.

It's a bit late to run such a game expansion to Morrowind and I'm not sure how you would officially add this to Oblivion except as documentation or set up such a homestead in the Mountains on the border between Cyrodiil and Morrowind - then you would have to have much other material to make it interesting to Oblivion Fans = is it really Ob-centric? So I guess to get Beth interested you would have to have a major Ob-expansion planned out + investors/support from current investors + a reason why this could and should be seriously, meaningfully tied into current events.

The best guess there would be something like either looking to the future - could with Bagrum and Divayth's tuition a family become a colony who research such things as multiple/swarm-organisms etc ... that which is Pellinal for example - thus marrying the fate of a re-emergent Dwemer Culture (hopefully along lines that Azura approves of) with matters that appear to be current.

Or if the postulated Return of Yffre is also linked to the return of others of the earth bones - one of whom might rather appreciate the Dwemer attitude to knowledge - or decide that they have a role to play.

And please don't just jump on that - think it through openmindedly. Change often brings strange fellow travellers.


The link in the smilie seems to be about something totally different that would be entirely out of character for Divayth and Bagrum - neither has ever impressed me in-game as the kind of characters bent on meaningless slaughter = naughty oblivionisbetter

I'm sure proweler got that. But, as he said biology never set apart the elves in the first place. The fracturing of Aldmeris was a cultural seperation, not a biological one. Plus, it doesn't matter about biology. The elves all had a common view their ancestry was divine.



How can you learn the alien psychology of a dead people who never wanted to be in the Aurbis anyway?

IF you were somehow able to create a sizeable population of dwemer, and IF they were to get back where they 'left off', they'd disappear yet again into another giant stompy robot, because the dwemer completely reject reality, the world, and practically everything, and wants to go back to the VERY beginning. Remember, Yag is also a dwemer, and he also shares the views of his people, whom all rejected the reality of Nirn, Aribus, etc. It was their goal and intent to ascend, and tear down the false realities.

Plus, who says Yag is compatible to make dwemer? He is still infected with corpus. While he is not dying from it, he is still very bloated and diseased, and he seems to be stuck that way. The nerevarine was either lucky, or came in earlier enough for the cure to work.

Vehk was once a general himself of the Chimer, who fought against the Dwemer. I doubt he'd have extensive knowledge of Dwemeri civilization nor any invested desire to resurrect it.

Divayth Fyr was a Chimer once, too. I doubt he'd much care to resurrect it, assuming he too fought the Dwemer in his Chimer days.

Yagrum Bagarn is a single dwarf. He wont be able to "teach dwemer culture" even if he tried, for various reasons including the fact that's a stunted, bloated, corprus ridden blob. You raise the risk of infection immensely by having him "teach culture", or whatever that means, to young clones or proto-dwemer.

For example, Dwemer martial arts and fighting styles; how is Yagrum going to teach that?

Dwemer knowledge is lost. It's simply lost, there's little else to it.

Well, you are not saying that Altmer being 6'4"+ and gold-skinned and Dwemer being 4'8" pale-skinned and with beards is not a biological difference.

Whatever moved the mer it was strong enough to toally reshape the different groups into different races.

Whatever the split between the Aldmeris it is likely that there were certain physical types /clan/families that naturally followed certain paths.

Further it's very hard to pin down the functional aspects of where they came and what they were originally because so many views conflict. That you refer to one aspect of Lore there is no doubt - but you have chosen to use only one path to assert something is an impossibility - overruling all other paths to make the point ...

All this is moot however - it does not really prove anything useful either way.

Maybe some did not want to come to Aurbis - but that was not their lot. And it would therefore appear that they had no real choice in the matter and one can state generally still do not ... although whether it might be suggested that the Dwemer went some way to attempting to break out ...


Tell me how anyone learns another culture (forget the psychology - that's another trick) - you learn from experience and make your choices along the way. Bit-by-bit. By learning.



... into a giant stumpy robot??? look I rofl at that - why do you confuse the wishes of the Dwemer with the doings of one corrupt loony who was hell-bent on creating giant stumpy robots? And where does Bagrum show the least inclination to follow that path? You are confusing the actions of the nutcase Kagrenac with those of other innocent Dwemer caught up willy-nilly in his machinations.

If you take a closer look at the Lore you might find passages that suggest that Dumac was astonished by news of Kagrenac's activities and intended to stop Kagrenac - but that Kagrenac had laid his plans well and fought him off. It is suggested that Kagrenac deliberately concealed his activities from Dumac.

Yagrum on the other hand was happily planes jumping ... exploring places that others only dream of ... and in my humble opinion he was and remains a damn sight wiser than Kegrenac even after decades and maybe centuries with coprus - QED. Do not totally confuse the outer appearance with the inner spirit. Just return to chat with Yagrum - you are assuming he was a rube like Kagrenac because he cannot (OR WILL NOT) put his finger on the precise methods and the Kagrenac employed. Did it never occur that Yagrum had no wish to spread further the nutcase ideas of Kagrenac? Also do not confuse Yagrum with the other Coprus victims ... Yagrum was a mental and emotional giant with vast stores of wisdom and resilience. So he put on weight and had poor skin complexion ... but it was not Yagrum that attacked strangers on sight ... Yagrum and the 'wives' needed the drum to keep the other Coprus Victims from messing up Yagrum's cosy little home.


I have had no thought that Vekh would get involved ... so what?


assuming ... too much I recon - Divayth is not the only Dunmer to take a keen interest in Dwemer culture and technology ... and I repeat Bagrum is a great friend ... and Div loves research and cloning Yagrum's cells would no doubt be an exciting bit of research. Have you never noted that there are certain characters in Tamriel that have a modicum of empathy? Well Divayth oozes the stuff.

To you a stunted, bloated coprus ridden blob - to me a keen intelect and deeply emotive - a being who would give much to know that his race had not come to naught. Mentally and emotionally healthy babies have been raised in 'high risk isolation' environments - not just premies. Ask parents who have never been able to hold their children for fear of contamination if their kids are mentally normal. Don't you read the newspapers or watch tv? Also there is magica ... there might be a way to keep the disease from being communicated now that the Heart is free and the other giant stumpy robot building looney in the mountain who was manipulating the contamination is dead.

??? that's the easiest part ... I think I will let you work that out yourself ...

Sounds more like you have got yourself lost in a desire that the potentially possible should not be. Suggest you play Morrowind and explore the Northern section of the Telvanni grasslands - there is a certain castle on a hill by the coast there where Dwemer knowledge is being rediscovered anyways whether you like it or not ... too bad :shrug: This in any case cannot be an exact replacement of what went before. Forget mere duplication. Who would want that?

I'm not really convinced that any of you are playing more than: None so blind as those that will not see.


Look at it from the point of view this could be a chance:
- that those few Dwemer Spirits that are still sane might be reincorporated and return to being something of what they were
- and for some new children to grow up and decide for themselves what kind of society their's is ... as all children do and it makes far more sense.

You write wayyy too much for someone who says I shouldnt think so much!



Someone suggested it. After all, the Tribunal (of which 2 are gone), Fyr, Bagarn, Radac and perhaps some other Telvanni lords are probably the only people still alive who experienced the Dwemer.

2 People cannot rebuild an entire race.



I think Fyr does pursues enjoyment more. He is a Telvanni, too. It's all centered around himself. This modicum of empathy sure does like to let thieves walk naively to their doom. If Bagarn were to suddenly die one day, I'm sure Fyr would be rather sad that this friend has gone, but get over it as soon as the next adventurer or Dwemer coherer came to the door. Maybe I'm wrong, but considering Fyr's other involvements, and relative importance on the world scene, the scheme that this thread is about seems to be far too time consuming for Fyr to really bother with.



The Dwemer did not know love. Bagarn's a special case. He has been isolated, warped by a magical disease and cared for at least 4000 years, it is reasonable to think that his "former" self dissipated when his corprus transformation took hold. The spirit of Radac's forge did not seem to really care about happened, and is the only dwemer specter we get to talk to. For all we know, Radac could have been a creation of Almalexia as she manipulated you to her own end.



??? How is it? He's stuck in a little walking spider chair.



Dwemer artifacts are being rediscovered and taken to Tel Vos, yes. So? It's not "too bad" becuase the Imperial Musuem, whilst still retaining that noble spirit of curiosity, will not amount to anything other than simply curiosity of the old race.

Take into account too, that the Imperials seem to take most interesting dwemer artifacts back to the Imperial city. Dwemer stuff doesnt work beyond Morrowind. Resurrect this clone race of yours, and you'll most likely soon find the local Moth legion tearing down your little settlement, breaking apart the proto-dwemer families and taking all them back to the Imperial City to be jeered and prodded at by local Colovians and legionaries.



You say that it wouldn't be some sort of mere duplication, but it will be. There are no more factors for ingenuity coming from Bagarn, and dwemer specters dont talk. So that 1 Dwemer specter spoke to you, it doesnt prove anything along the lines that it would willing to do anything other float around being annoyed.

Got any proof for that "not knowing love" thing?

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#3

http://www.imperial-library.info/dwemer/guide.shtml#10


To say that the Dwemer did not know love, is an understatement and taken out of context. I've added this reference to show that the Dwemer were envisioned not as devoid of emotion, but beyond human emotions.

Oh, yes. The sermons of a man who urged Nerevar to go to war with his best friend (king of the Dwarves). He definitely has no reason to hate the Dwemer and make up things about them in his delusional religion.

And Proweler, for once I agree with you.
I mean, yes- they were so far beyond human to be completely and utterly alien, but to say they couldn't love is as stupid as to say they couldn't be happy, sad or hungry.

I don't think you understood what I just said or anything of what I qouted. They considered the physical world to be fake, as well as the concepts in the mind. This means everything, even the concepts of everything. This is why they are beyond emotions, emotions are just as fake to them as everything else.

You can compare this aspect of the Dwemer to the Vulcans from Star Treck, minds rationally ignore emotion. Then take this to an extreme were it becomes impossible to characterize it properly. Although this is a bad example because every show make a point of it showing that the Vulcans do have emotions making them more human, making them merely others and not another.

Hence it is an understatement to say that they did know love.

It was taken out of context because the love in the sermons is more then just an emotion.



You might want to look into this delusional religion some more because it is scary how much of the Sermons is true and can be seen in other aspects of the world. The myths echo it, the moth priests breath it and the stories live on it.

A simple "you're welcome" would've been nice. :'(



I know enough about the Tribunal thanks, I meant "delusional" in the sense that these guys urged Nerevar to go to war with the Dwemer (including Dumac, a dwarf who considered Nerevar a friend and vice versa- holy crap, emotions!) just to further their own goals. The Tribunal are not remotely trustworthy, and anything they say about the Dwemer (let alone the events at the battle of Red Mountain) should be taken with a grain of salt.

And the 36 Lessons of Vivec is so metaphorical (for example, Vivec is implied to have been born a divine being, when we all know he stole his divinity from the heart of Lorkhan), that it shouldn't be considered a reliable source.

You are judging the Chimer by Eastern standards. They were taught by the Seven Daedric Princes that among many other traits embody selfishness, revolution, murder and six. By those standards what they did then was acceptable if not morally the right thing.

The Sermons describe the birth of Vivec as god and he make it no secret that he was a mortal once: "At this the egg laughed. 'I am given too much to bear so young. I must have been born before.'" It is even in his name, Vivec, Vehk and Vehk.

Now the basic themes and elements the Sermons address can be found in other myths and religious customs. Often only in snippets and small glimpses but that should dispel the idea that they are completely untrust worthy.

edit:

All that aside, the guy who wrote those sermons, MK, corroborated the same views in the text I quoted. As far as argument go, it's lousy to involve the author but aside from reading everything and realizing the connections, I can't think of a way to show you this.

Hungry isnt an emotion.

Lord Hyamentar, Hunger is an intensity of emotion at the least - and a feeling as is pain. And I am sure that Yagrum is capable of writing a simple martial arts instruction manual?

Proweller, MK surely wrote the sermons - but which face was he wearing at the time ... and when he claimed that one of his faces had to tell the truth was he telling the truth?

Morality is the belief / custom / agreement of society as a whole ... but I always felt that they really followed the prophets ... and some also looked to certain Daedra.
I hope you have noted that a certain Daedra had no knowledge of certain practices until Vivec pulled out ves Muatra and taught him all about them. This might suggest that the Daedra were rather more innocent until they met Vivec ... and Vivec seems to be the main man (or whatever) where so many folks are concerned - I wonder why?

When were the sermons written? Fairly early on I reckon - so Vivec would not want people getting too emotional about the fate of the Dwemer or wish people to see them as 'nice folks' - that was not a friendly war. Religion and politics have much in common including spin - hmmm, sermons = spin.

Also what does the creator of the Dwemer have to say about his own creations?

Friendship is an emotion.

Your position kinda reminds me of the guy who denys there is any kind of God. When you point to the Bible and say: "Look there, see that word? It is God." The guy still denys that God exists. rofl

Whether or not you believe in God, God still exists ... See ... it is written.

You have convinced me guys! I would have to be content with 'tainted' Dwemer who know emotion and friendship etc ... and who are also highly intellectual. These are the qualities that they might gain from Yagrum, Divayth and the wives. ... and our friend up at Tel Vos may well decide to take an interest ... plus any other people drawn into this great quest ... and one wonders how many great Telvanni there are on the Eastern Mainland who might get interested? Emotive Dwemer might definately gain Azura's forgiveness.

Now we have 2 genuine Dwemer. One corporeal but required to communicate via a glass wall or something and the other a Fully Cogent Spectre. Plus a research-genius who has lived for so long that he has invented his Coprosarium to fill his days with interest as a sort of hobby - and who might be willing to pop in now and again to see how his experiment with the Dwemer clones he creates is working out. This family is sure building up ... Hmm - Divayth's wives seem totally sane to me so he sure knows how to look after babies and educate children ... or maybe he just brought in help? ... and the wives are childless apparently so this would give them something more to do ... remember that mer children are highly valued ... as are mer ancients