... not in that way, obviously.

But it occurred to me earlier that Divayth Fyr has four daughters, who are clones of himself. What if Mr. Fyr used his cloning spell on Yagrum? Suddenly there's a whole bunch of female Dwemer running around, quite possibly Corprus-free.

"Notes on Racial Phylogeny" says that half-breeds have the racial traits of the mother, so provided these newfound Dwemer mothers don't mind their sons having their own female clones created to speed up the process, the Dwemer could be cloned back into their former glory in a few generations!

I have no doubt that this has probably been discussed before, but i'd still like to hear people's opinions on the subject.

Wouldn't they be riddled with disease though?

Well, Corprus is curable, and after the Nerevarine being a guinea-pig with spectacular demi-godlike results, i'm sure Divayth Fyr would've used the cure on Yagrum. In fact, I believe there's a letter somewhere (can't find a link at the moment though) that says something about Yagrum Bagarn being "back to his old self".

In any case, I doubt the disease is genetic.

Very interesting. I never thought about it. I wonder if there could be some possibilities in store for us in the near future.

Also, you might be interested in waving this under a dev's nose (M.K.).

They wouldn't be Dwemer. The Dwemer set themselves apart from the other Elves by their knowledge and their customs. Merely cloning Yagrum won't bring any of those things back.

not true, well sort of.

The 'race' would be restored, but they would have lost much knowlage. Though Yagrum was a top (?)scientist(?) so he could teach his knowlage on.

is the human race only different because we have technology, no of course not.

They'd be the same race genetically, and besides, who's to say that they wouldn't have the same customs and knowledge? The first generation at least would be clones of Yagrum Bagarn, so depending on how exactly Fyr's cloning magicka works, they'd either already have an extensive knowledge of such a culture and would go back to business as usual, or they'd be instructed in the ways of their people, much like how any race of people teaches their children in their ways.

Sure, some would reject this culture and strive to be unique, but again, how is that different to any culture?



I know that it's definitely something i'd like to see, but I have a feeling we've probably seen the last of the Dwemer for now (unless Yagrum and Fyr show up in whatever region the next game is set in, but I think they'd probably focus on some other lost race native to the province, such as the Kothringi or Orma in a hypothetical "Elder Scrolls V: Argonia/Black Marsh" ).

Well, before you get the cure, which only removes the negative symptoms, you find out that Yagrum was pretty much Fyr's guinea pig for a long time and in worse shape than he was before Fyr found him. Most other subject would flat out die from the older cures, but Yagrum just seems to neither getting better, but not getting worse. His mind did return to mostly normal from insanity, but I doubt it'll fully recover. I bet he's in a point of no return with the disease, since it seems he has had it for quite a long time, and that he's just stuck in his scarred, corpulent self.

Also, the 'cure' really isn't a cure. Even Fyr makes this point by telling you that you still have the disease, by telling you that you still cannot contract any disease, and that you are basically immortal (baring accidents) but the negative symptoms are gone (mind and body rot).


Yes, but I think he made some mention, or one of the Fyr's gave hints that he's not exactly fully capable in the head, and that he may have forgotten things due to his long contraction of Corpus

I haven't played Morrowind's main quest in such a long time, but I thought the player's cure was something different to previous experiments. Either way, the point i'm trying to make is that it's probably not infectious anymore (let alone genetic), and you'd probably have to get the disease from an Ash Vampire or Dagoth Ur, and that's unlikely these days.

I mean, a clone of me wouldn't have a cold unless he went out and stood in the rain or something, so I don't see a Dwemer clone having Corprus just because Yagrum had it.

...probably.

In a fantasy setting race is often used to visualize differences in culture. Perhaps that makes it seem as if they are animals where their knowledge and behavior is already ingrained in the brain but this isn't the case.

Humans are set apart by their knowledge and customs more then genetics. I'm not trying to be politically correct here. For example a 6th generation Irish American won't behave anything like a somebody from Ireland, even though the genetics are minor.

So to restore the Dwemer you need to restore their culture and their knowledge, not the people themselves. The only way to learn these customs is from other Dwemer, merely trying to imitate them won't have the same effects, it doesn't create Dwemer but a culture of people slavishly trying to imitate the Dwemer without their understanding.

The result would be somewhat like a cargo-cult.

Well, I suppose a better way to word my title might've been "Making Dwemer NPCs and player characters a viable possibility without necessarily having to bother with finding out what happened to the original Dwemer but still creating a race that has identical racial abilities to the original". But it's a bit long.

Besides, what's the difference between Ashlander Dunmer and Great House Dunmer? Their culture, yeah, but they have exactly the same stats. I'm talking about game mechanics here, being a game and all.

i still beg to differ, if you somehow managed to clone a 6th generation Irish American today, you would get a 6th generation Irish American. They would just change to today's culture. that why i said before, you have the 'race' as such, but not the knowlage that they had.

It's never been too clear to me how much Yagrum has actually forgotten and how much he intentionally does not care to remember. He gives the impression of knowing a lot more than he is willing to share.

It's possible to reconstruct large parts of real-world cultures that have been mostly lost, if you have enough people motivated to do so. The Dwemer language is not totally lost, there are scholarly works on their architecture, law, religion, and communal life, many of their artifacts are still functional, and between Lord Fyr, Vivec (if he hasn't gone away forever), Yagrum, and maybe Radac's ghost, there's four who remember Dwemer culture firsthand.

All that seems to indicate to me that the reconstruction of a latter-day neo-Dwemer society, if only in miniature, is not something to consign to the realm of the implausible.

Trying to recreate the Dwemer? I agree with proweler, though. It can't or shouldnt be done It's more than just "they vanished" and it's shame... they vanished becuase they transgressed the natural order and assaulted the divine.

And don't forget that "retreating behind the active principle itself" bit. That kinda puts the idea up the pan. I'd invoke the Plato-lego idea, and say that even if you managed to mold a bunch of mer into the likeness of the Dwemer, and taught them how to live like Dwemer, think like Dwemer, work and exist as Dwemer, they still won't be the Dwemer, as the essense of the Dwemer is irretrievable, behind the active principle. (the original lego pieces of the Dwemer are gone!)

I think also that even trying to "bring them back" would just piss Azura off more. (Considering that she may have the originator of the dissaperance of the Dwemer in the first place.)

The big issue I have with "Corprus is curable" is that Fyr outright tells the nerevarine that the formula he used to cure him/her failed in other subsequent tests, and that it was an anomalous fluke that the nerevarine didn't die. Considering that azura apparently knew first hand that the nerevarine would not only contract the illness, but also be miraculously cured, it is not untoward to suggest she tipped her hand in on that particular aspect.


As for the dwemer themselves-- The question remains on just how many dwemer ghosts retain their memories of their prior lives, and how much of their "I will murder you on sight!" behavior stems from being stuck in limbo. (It is possible that the enchantment that Kagrenac tried to activate to make his race immortal severed their connection with the dream sleeve, preventing the dwemer ghosts from being able to be reincarnated. It would also mean that they retain their memories in their revenant forms, and are tormented by the lack of sensory abilities that the form suffers from.)

Offering to assist in the construction of surrogate animunculus bodies for these disenfranchised spirits could prove quite the boon to reviving the culture, as there seems to be no shortage of dwemer ghosts in Morrowind province.

Adding to the discussion about the Nerevarine "cure", if you return to Divayth he says that after you (the Nerevarine) left he tried the cure on some of the worst affected corprus sufferers and they all died. Maybe hinting that Yagrum is not that bad.

He could repopulate the Dwemer race through making a male and female Yagrum and breeding, but then the children would be deformed from interbreeding! So the Dwemer wouldn't be the same again. And something tells me that Yagrum is the sort to stay out of weird Telvanni cloning magics.

The day they bring back the Dwemer is the day I quit caring about TES. To bring them back is to completely ignore why they are gone.

Well they aren't so much as gone according to the in game concensus (although none of these theories about the Dwemer are proven in game) but rather they no longer exist in the same dimension or level of existence. This being the case however, why are there Dwemer spectres? If they didn't die, how can there be ghosts (or piles of ash under Mournhold. But I do agree, it would be a cheap plot development to bring them back in future TES, so no cloning Yagrum!

incist, no. Breeding with male Altmer or Dunmer? Why the heck not? (Although they don't seem like the type to like to cuddle )

I'd agree that Yagrum would shy away from Telvanni magic most of the time, but rebuilding his shattered society seems like the sort of thing he could dig.

Anyway, I do agree that it's best that the Dwemer stay gone, and unless there's another Morrowind (or Hammerfell) game, it's unlikely the topic will be touched by Bethesda.
However... I wouldn't call it a cheap plot element. All the pieces are there, I mean, a wizard who can clone female copies of himself who happens to live with a fellow who's the last of his kind? I wouldn't be surprised if the developers were begging us to figure this out- it just seems too obvious!

The most we'll see is probably NPC rumours, and maybe the odd character (they'd make perfect villians, actually- a newly-created group of Dwemer trying to reclaim Resdayn from the Dunmer amongst the chaos of an Emperor-less empire? PLOT HOOK!).

...Or Altmer :dance:



But the point is that it is the culture that makes the "race". Like with the difference between the Altmer, Direnni and Ayleid.
In a nutshell, the only difference between Altmer and Dwemer are the beards.

I havn't got far enough into Morrowind yet to meet this two people, (I'm working on it) but couldn't Yagrum teach his clones about Dwemer culture?

The ash piles were caused by their disaperance as they're all caught in the act. Not expecting to transcend their mortal coil. The ghosts can be assumed dead from before their disappearance.

The theory is confirmed in game, although not with so many words. During Trebonius qeusts to find out what happened to the Dwarves you'll speak to Baladas who'll say the following:

The Dwemer researched the transformation of the gods into mortals and the mortal world, they found away to reverse the transformation, to make a god of mortals. They became the Numidium, the Brass God of the Dwemer.

That was the short explanation.

The Dwemer also denied both phenomena and noumena, not only rejecting the world as it apeared to them but the concepts that they had for it in mind. They knew universe did not actually exist and tried to transcend it! This disbelieve of reallity and the power to control it with this knowledge, is a theme that can also be found in the other esoteric parts of lore.

The disappearance of the Dwemer did connects to allot of powerful themes and attributes to their marvel. Bringing them back would destroy their greatest aspect, the very fact that they are gone.

But what would be the point in restoring the race?
Like it was said previously, they'd have no understanding of the actual culture, making them little more than normal elves.
And taking the time to teach them would be stupid as well, after all, why couldn't you just spend the time educating someone else?
Unless I missed something, and the Dwemer had some natural talent...

We're talking about the magical experiments of a Telvanni Wizard, and to be honest, what's the point in anything they do?

That said, the idea of a culture-less, newly recreated, formerly extinct race suddenly thrust into a world where they haven't existed for thousands of years, yearning to find a place for themselves, and possibly reacting violently to a country who no longer needs them... it's got potential. Especially considering the chaos that the Empire is in at the start of the 4th Era.
Like I said before, these neo-Dwemer would possibly want to recreate their lost society, and may lash out at the idea that Resdayn is ruled by the Dunmer, and has been renamed Morrowind.

I'm not saying make them a playable race, but they've got great potential as a villian. Or at least an enemy faction like the Necromancers or Blackwood Company.

But would they even care?
Again, they wouldn't be the ancient, it's-a-good-idea-to-build-a-50-foot-tall-robot-powered-by-a-god's-heart-and-capable-of-destroying-the-world, rather hostile Dwemer. Would they even have any motivation to try to retake Morrowind?
Heck, they could just turn out to be the Tamriel version of hippies..