This is true, but the only inherent problem with the wiki is the same one the Oblivion construction wiki had, it takes a long time to be assembled. Bethesda tosses up a very bare bones approach, then leaves it to the users to update. If there was a little more meat to the original info it wouldn't be as bad. But looking at how detailed the Oblivion one is, it'll get there, eventually.

Is the GECK site not owned by Bethesda?

Yes it is, they created the GECK for/with Fallout3.

M

The information on it on the other-hand, is 100% from the community though yea?

My .02? A book you pay for and can hold in your hands is nothing of value(okay, maybe minimal value xD) compared to a database resource that can be accessed for free and is being actively updated.

It could do with better referencing and search, I did a search for GetInCell and it came up with nada, yet when I did a manual search I found the same command as a link to TES4 Construction wiki, while I'm grateful to the community for putting in the effort, it gets just a little irritating to be transferred to another website, especially one that's language is more magic spells and stuff, I understand these commands are used in the gambryo engine but I would like to see examples sited more to do with FO3 that Oblivion.

I appreciate that "WllieSea", One reason that comes to mind why not working and maybe you can tell me how you recreated the mod into your mod?, but the other thing was going to say , reason for problem vs. no problems is the same as exp. modder vs. noob modder. you know what needs to be done to change over, To be honest I though I did but finding out that isn't the case obviously.

As I said last night also I don't want to step on toes about this thread and cause doors to close that I may need in the future either.
I've said it before and I'll continue to say it I appreciate all the help and advice people give me. Thanks!

Cheers
CJ

Sorry, but I'd like a manual too.

After reading through quite a few tutorials on the Oblivion WIKI, tutorials written in semi-bad English, with steps missing,
yea, I'd want a professionally written manual written by someone who's job is to provide CLEAR and CONCISE steps,
and not just ramble and mumble through the steps and assume that some steps can be left out, "Because you should know those steps"

Case in point, there's a Glow Map tutorial for Fo3 on the nexus that leaves out the ALL Important step of hitting
"F3" to open a VERY VERY important window in NIFSkope (I think it might've been changed because I PM'ed the AUthor)

By leaving that step out, the tutorial is one HUGE ball of frustration and unfinishable.

So yea, I want a professionally written manual that includes ALL the steps needed to do something,
and just doesn't just quickly breeze over points that the writer feels aren't needed.

I don't think anyone really appreciates the amount of work that documentation requires. It'd probably take longer to document their GECK inside and out than making DLC.

If one cannot, after intense attempting, learn functions of GECK, it is perhaps the best that he does not do modding.

Well that's an Elitist and Exclusionary attitude.

Not everybody learns the same way.

Example...

Why spend 20 years teaching yourself how to play guitar when you could've
gotten lessons and learned what took you 20 years to learn in 5 years instead?

If all you guys who hate the idea of a manual are so good at the GECK, then write some tutorials,
and stop keeping the info to yourselves

It can't be that bad, though. If you're unthinkingly following it step by step, and one's missing, then sure it's a problem, but I can't imagine it being so complicated that you can't figure out the problem by messing around with blocks for a bit. Impetus to experiment is important, because as soon as you get a handle on how nifs work, you can do all kinds of things with them without requiring a tutorial.

E: Thread moves fast.
The GECK and game are fairly simple though. Drag and drop, form->reference, and reference->values are all there is to it, all the features are just different implementations of that. Once you grasp how the underlying system works, then you don't need tutorials. If you don't grasp how it works, then you're kind of screwed because the GECK was written for designers and coders who have an understanding of the game.

THe glow map one IS that bad, because it never tells you to open the window where three-quarters of the tutorial takes place,
rendering it Unfinishable, if you don't know about F3 opening that window.

It ASSUMES you know NIFSkope, and that's why I like professionally written tutorials,
professionally written tutorials assume NOTHING.

The block data window? You can't possibly have gotten stuck on that, if you looked around the various view menus and you'd have found it in about five seconds.
Modding is a creative hobby, you do have to be willing to show some initiative and inquisitiveness. If you can't find something, your first instinct should be to look.

About reference info of functions and features:
A wiki page, once a user has found an error, or missing information, can be fixed on the spot (as long as said user says it instead of going away).
An official manual does not. Any error on it is pretty much going to haunt us till world's end.
The wiki needs time to grow, however, it'll grow quicker than any official attempt to document the geck.
Same goes for the geck's many bugs and quirks, chances are, the community discovers them far earlier than beth.

About tutorials
You won't find a step by step hand-holding tutorial for everything you'd want to do in a mod. Modding involves creative and clever thinking to bend the building blocks to do what you wish. An official manual wont teach you how to set up a slot machine.
Hand-holding tutorials are also counter-productive in the sense that you follow an unnatural mod thinking process. You're not checking up the building blocks and figuring out a way to do what you want, you're blindly following steps. Granted, some hand-holding is helpful until you learn the very basics, but the sooner you get into the coding/tinkering mindset, the sooner you'll be a productive modder. If you cannot get into that mindset, you can pretty much forget about modding altogether.

Huh? I've never hit F3 in applying glow maps. Another thing to bear in mind is that, at least for glow maps, there is nothing really Fallout specific to applying them, it's just like any other Nifskope application really.

Yes, the Block Data Window, there was no indication in the tutorial or mention of the "Block Data" window, or how to open it.

And yes, I experiment, I rarely if ever ask questions here because I figure things out for myself.

The block Data window was one of them, after about 6 hours of frustration.
Which could've been cut to ZERO, had the Tutorial Author not have ASSUMED that
everyone has been using NIFskope for months.

When I did the tutorial I was new to NifSkope, to Modding, to Retexturing, I was new to everything.

And this is the way Tutorials/Manuals MUST be written

Here's another good example of a poorly written tutorial.

There's a retexture Tutorial on the Oblivion WIKI, it even tells you to use BSA Commander,
however it tells you to extract EVERY SINGLE Mesh and Texture, 3.6 gigs worth.

WHY? With BSA Commander you can pick and choose what to extract.

Now that person who is following the tutorial has probably accidentally overwritten every single mesh and texture he/she is using in mods
and that person also now has 3.6 of wasted hard drive space.

If you put a well written manual in front of me I could probably fix the Space Shuttle,
put a poorly written tutorial in front of me, said Space Shuttle would explode

I have read official manuals having such mistakes. Do not assume that an official manual/tutorial is going to be NASA-Standards. Heck, chances are, some NASA manuals aren't that good.
In a wiki, you pm the author, you comment, you edit the page, and poof!, fixed. Try getting a fix on an official manual.

I need a "Modding For Dummies" manual. I have been playing with the construction set for Oblivion and reading the WIKI and just can't seem to get the hang of it or understand clearly what they are explaining some times. I think the WIKI is geared to help everyone with a basic knowledge, but I need the manual that helps those who don't have even the basic knowledge! I have visions of what I would like to make and add in my own game, and can't get advanced far enough to do even the simplest of these.

When someone has been modding a long time, they can teach modding at a college level, but who can teach it at Kindergarten level? Lol. (talk slowly, not using any technical terms or teaching what they mean first, lol)

You have to hit F3 to open the window where you add the path to the glow maps.
The tutorial never mentioned this, and the NifSkope I was using didn't have this window open by default.




Anyway, I'm out, apparently the concensus is "Yer stupid if'n you can't figger out teh GECK"

I guess I'll have to adopt that attitude when people ask me about Audio Editing/Recording/Voice Acting. :thumbsdown:



Heck, apparently I should stay off the forums altogether as my opinion apparently counts for nothing.

BYE!

The existing tutorials should teach you enough to get started, apart from that, the process is mostly:

Organize your idea -> split it in very simple steps/parts/blocks -> go through each of these blocks and see if you can find something similar on the game already and copy, use the wiki to learn how to tweak it to your desires.
Once you get a better hang of things, you simply check the wiki for the "building blocks" of what you want, and assemble.

Correct -- we don't have plans for a print guide.

That what your saying is true TG, but only if someone has come along and put info in there for that block or step, or that Beth has taken care of it. But there is alot of blanks in critical places in Wiki, I'm glad we have it.
But you can't make it sound like, go to Wiki, for all your answers as it ain't happening been there done that, sorry.

Cheers

CJ

For what it's worth, I did vote yes. I just don't think it's likely to happen, and if it did, the manual would have errors (anything, no matter how well reviewed, has errors... school books have errors found after printing). So like was said, where a wiki, you can fix it... an official manual is just going to have the error.

I think it'd be nice to have... but the community is pretty good--new modders start all the time.

I guess for me I will continue to copy stuff from the various forums and Wiki and print it off and put into one of my many notebook binders for future ref.