Herro there, a recent MSN chat gave me an idea for a communist revolution mod for oblivion, in which the PC part of a revolutionary vanguard that leads to proletariat of Tamriel in a revolution to overthrow the Emperor and establish a communist Cyrodil.

The player would organize a communist party, and lead the revolutionaries in all cities to victory, and manage the party and new Soviet state afterwards. Anyone want to take it up? Of course, it would need to have Cyrodil modernized a bit first, so weapons should prolly be added.

Yeah! So what if, like, when you complete all the quests, all the races get made completely equal. For example, not only will all special bonuses and abilities be replaced by one "Citizen of Tamriel" ability that everyone gets, but they will no longer even look different; all races will have the same appearance. All non-creature factions would have to be removed since the only faction allowed should be the "allied with the state" faction. Naturally, female guards and soldiers would be necessary too. And of course all the different character classes would have to be given more equality. It's morally reprehensible that we don't see more knights and barbarians given the role of pure mages for instance. And all shacks and mansions will have to go so they can be replaced by identical square brick utopia homes for all NPCs.

bump, ya?

The Mythic Dawn dressed in red, is that close enough?

Contrary to popular belief and indoctrination, thats not what communism actually is. The soviet union was a dictatorship, not communist. I don't know why people can't accept this, its not like it makes it any better or stalin a nicer person. Hitler and saddam were both dictators who hated communism, but I bet if you talked to people you would find very few differences between people living under saddam or the nazis and living under stalin. The fact that you are implying that treating people with equality means communism which is "evil" scares me to be honest.

Anyway, on-topic I think it would be cool to have a mod where you can overthrow the empire and rise up in its place. I know as the player you are supposed to be like the super hero of cyrodill, but you aren't invincible so you would have to get a large portion of the army on your side. There is only so many guards you can take head on or sneak around and kill from the shadows. Of course its not like the numbers in the game are actually equals to the numbers in the story. I imagine the imperial legions would have thousands upon thousands of soldiers. I haven't done enough reading on the elder scrolls to know of any numbers involved, I have no idea if numbers of populations are actually given, but I always imagined something like the roman empire when talking about the emperor and the imperial legions.

As a Marxist-Leninist and a Stalinist, I could write a long to refute those statements, but I won't, because political disscussion is not allowed on this forum.

Back on topic, regardless of lore, in the game's reality, it would be impossible for the engine to field even dozens of soldiers at once, let alone thousands. I imagine in the mod there'd be a political side and a military side. The political side of scheming, convincing peasants and workers to support you, convincing generals to join you, or if they won't, their soldiers to mutiny. At the same time, there's the military side of prolonged guerilla warfare, and the like. As well as that, there'd be the economic side of setting up worker's soviets, worker's communes, and collective farms.

After you win, of course, management of the Soviet State would be an issue. There could be a politburo with multiple factions, and a lot of political scheming and the like.

I'd say: Good luck.

Ideas are easy to make, mods aren't. Especially overhaul mods like the idea you propose take a whole lot of time and dedication. Large mods take hundreds of hours to develop, and that's simply not something you do for a random guy on a forum who happens to think of something that might be turned into a mod that some people would want to play. Not unless someone who wants to dedicate his freetime to making a mod, who just needs an idea to work with, happens to stumble across this post and might actually think that this idea is worth all the time and effort to make it into a mod.

Now if someone does come across and makes this mod for you, I'd like to congratulate you with the sheer amount of luck you have. Otherwise, the only way to get a mod is to make a mod. So good luck with that.

Then you would be wrong. Poltically communism is pure democracy. Everyone decides what is best for everyone as a whole. The soviet union was ruled by one man and his poltical party. The U.S. isn't a pure democracy either, its a representative democracy. Vote in people to run the country as million upon millions of people trying to decide each and every issue is a bit impossible. Unless you think the government owning and/or controlling the natural resources and the businesses makes it communist? It wouldn't. That is no different then the monarchies of the previous 7,000 years of human civilization, and no one called them communists.

Couldn't we just make Cyrodiil like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

Much more fun.

Oh, WARNING - link is to youtube, if you search really hard you may find naughty bits. Which have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Bethesda and are viewed at you own risk. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

All else aside, I'm going to go with re-stating the old idiom that ideas are cheap, but action is worth gold. Very rare is the individual who has the skill to do something that not many do, but is not doing anything. Modders are modders because they're busy modding, not because they sit around all day waiting for someone to come around and give them a good idea to spend their free time working on.

If you want to see a mod made, chances are you've got to make it, and this only gets more and more likely as mod complexity and/or size increases. Total conversions are projects that take years of working a couple of hours most days to complete, even with a large team of talented people. They're not something to be proposed or embarked on lightly.

I think that pretty much sums up the main points of the matter without even needing to refer to the details of this case - perfect for copy/pasting.

I agree totally except for the idiom of "ideas are cheap, but action is worth gold. Ideas aren't cheap. One can't be born without the other. I like the idiom that says, "Ideas are meaningless if amount to nothing."

@I am Walrus:

If you really were a Marxist-Leninist and a Stalinist, then you would probably realize that this is not exactly possible withing making it a darn-near Total Conversion, because to a Marxist, a Communist Society can only come AFTER industrialism (Something not really within the scope or possibility of Oblivion, it's an agricultural-feudal society, without even hints of oncoming industrialism, and making it into one would be a TC) To a Leninist, an elite revolutionary party is only needed if the people have been objectified and lost all sense of social interaction, and therefore don't have the ability to rise up. Also, Leninism requires, post revolution, hasty industrialization. Stalinism IS hasty industrialization. So, really, without industrialism present, your "Communist" Revolution mod will lose it's communist tinge, and be more like a bourgeois revolution such as the French Revolution of 1789.

I'm just laying that out there for your thought.

Please don't try to tell me I have simply been indoctrinated with lies... I am a student of history and know what I'm talking about.

Oblivion isn't an agricultural-fuedal society. It has no economy. There are all of 3 or 4 farms which grows 7 or 8 carrots. The people in the towns produce nothing. So, regardless of these factors, it would have to be a total conversion. But you are right, that's why I said in the original post that Oblivion would have to be taken out of it's archaic setting. And on the point of losing it's communist tinge, as long as the intent for a classless society exists from the start, I don't think it can really lose that "tinge". Once the revolution is over, there will be the matter of dissolution of the state and entering into the pure communist society.

Though I suppose all of these factors make the mod unachieveable.

While the idea is kinda neat it would feel more at place in a pseudo-industrialist society that doesnt exist in Tamriel at least not as yet. Heres hoping Muskets for TES V eh? Heh.

Without widespread industrialisation coupled with the middle and upper working classes becoming increasingly literate (after the growth of the printing press) communism as an ideology would not yet make an appearance; and as a consequence neither would facism (as that was a consolidation of the reactionary attitudes of the mid 19th century in a "last gasp" against communism and the liberal agenda) while we are on the subject.

Alas.

I don't know what Fallout: New Vagas is like, but I think it was supposed to have a more intact society than in Fallout 3? Perhaps in that game, this would be feasible. Though I know that's not what you're asking. The Pitt actually could come pretty darn close, if much of the terminology and some details were changed. (Turn the slaves into Wage earners.)

I think it would be cool as heck to see an RPG in which you can sway the course of governments... Perhaps like an RPG set in a society that mirrors the Weimar republic, in which you can either struggle to maintain the weak and tenuous democracy, or side with one of the two extremes. But that's neither here nor there, and not part of this discussion. Guess I should shut up now...

Why couldn't this thread have just died a natural death?

Ideology aside, what I was objecting to was the taste of imposing a modern ideology onto a quasi-medieval fantasy world that in any case probably already suffers from way too much of it. Faction and specialization don't mean anything in Oblivion because the developers don't want to tell you that you can't be head of two enemy factions, or that a sneaky assasin can't also be a and equally strong knight AND a studied mage, or that some people will only curse and spit at you if you're playing an orc (should be part of the fun, no?). And why would half of the marauders be women geared up for battle anyway? When you don't want anyone to have to make choices and experience being unequal, you end up forcing everyone to be equal, even though they aren't and don't want to be. Sure, most fantasy games have some aspects that are unrealistic outside of a modern real-world context (universal literacy for example), but Bethesda does it up so much it feels more like a Disney park than a real world in which unfair and unpredictable things happen. The last thing the game needs is more of that.

And Arandar, just a minor peeve: it's recommended that you only use scare quotes when you're using someone else's words. It's not fair to do it when it's a word you're introducing into the thread for the first time.

I've requested a thread lock simply because:

a) Political discussion isn't allowed here.
b ) Even in the case that the discussion could be permitted on the basis that it's concerning a mod being proposed, the proposal is neither serious nor feasible, and hardly any of the comments made are in direct relation to the proposal.
c) AFAICT, this is just degenerating into an argument over political ideologies, and when that happens, flames follow.

Yeah, great. Tell me when you're done with it.

Actually, I like the idea for a mod and I have thought about implementing it in one of mine unfinished mods. Of course, neither would there be a revolution and even less communism (which I find immersion breaking term in this game).

Now what was my plan about?
It was about creating a group of outlaws (think Robin Hood) that are outlawed by the Empire officials because of their political struggle. Their ideology would be to bring down the Empire and whole feudal - aristocratic society (I'm nobility, you're not, pay be and I'll kick you in your ass with my noble boot) so that all people have right to own land, equal rights etc.
The group's name was 'Green Cowl Band' and you've guessed, they used green cowls while in action. Action here would have been diversions, raiding imperial caravans and officials while transporting goods through the Great Forest, avoiding and misleading Skingrad's guard captain Dion who forms a group of officials trying to break the band. Etc.


The player of course, would have the choice of assisting either side and changing sides in the progress, at least at few defined points.
Outcome in either case would not be a revolution because that would be a TC lol. It would be either breakup of Green Cowl Band or their victory in a battle, but with a long struggle still ahead.

Since they would be outlawed, but their identity unknown, they would have agents working undercover in towns, but they would also work with some other shady organisations from TES lore, like for example Renrija Krin, Thieves Guild, ...



Please don't stray from TES politics discussion into real world politics and ideologies here, there are plenty of forums on the internet to discuss that if it interests you.

P.S. instead of lock, if necessary, cleaning would be better.

Washington, let's say you are with the Green Cowls and you are successful. How would the changes you seek be implemented? I mean obviously you'll still have counties run by counts and countesses; I don't see how you would go about altering that in-game. Would it just involve someone else taking up residence in White Gold Tower who is not a monarch? What changes would be visible to the player as a result of this victory? In order for the victory to be meaningful something has to change, even if not the whole system of government.

Edit: the last couple sentences came off as critical but I actually meant it as a serious request for you to expand on this, not to defend the feasability.

Well I too would like to see more political mods, but admittedly the topic suggested here seems like flame baiting at best.

A very narrow view of communism to say the least. I've no issue with real world politics after all nothing that is created in games or movies is ever really as complicated and detailed as real life and all of it drawn from real life. I see no way to think about or talk about politics and religion in this game without talking about real life. The only way it degenerates is when people just get rude.

So, hopefully without straying into the forbidden or encouraging flaming let me attempt a contrast.

As Socialism --leading into--> Communism is a critique of Modern Industrialism --leading into--> capitalism.

Likewise ... Anarchy is a criticism of monarchy.

This game most certainly flaunts monarchical values ... and very Judeo-Christain re-interpretations of its own (and from what I understand previously defined as pagan/polytheistic) religion related to TES lore. Everything reaks of it. From the Akotoshian right to rule down to blood lineages, and a standing army to defeat other claims to the throne.

In my youth in the U.S. we all loved punk rock and when we heard the words "anarchy" ... we not living in an apparent aristocracy thought it just meant chaos, not understanding in our addled teen brains that it really means -- to be free of being ruled.

As I understand the lore (and I'm not anywhere near as adept as say bg2408 on the subject) the TES universe is a cosmic ocean of Oblivion (a kind of flowing energy of beingness) out of this ocean the Aedra (gods) carved order and work through the agents (game players) to maintain this order. In response to this the ocean (always the ultimate solution) seeks to reabsorb this energy that is articulated as order and the world of Nirn.

That is how I take the earlier lore of TES. The aedra and daedra are opposed but neither is objectively good or bad. This same pattern is found in life and certainly other polytheistic religions. Life comes into being from seeming chaos and returns to disarray after death. In Hindu and other multi-god religions there are gods of creation and gods of destruction. While some polytheistic religions maintain that the destruction gods are part of the cycle it is certainly the view that in the Judeo-Christain world destruction is not seen as cleansing but always negative and to be banished.

So if the aedra set up the lineage of Akatosh as a method of creating order and preserving order - then why would anyone fight to defeat that? I don't buy that the Mythic Dawn were able to - purely through corruption and lies - engineer the overthrow of order and let that giant stomping baby in to throw a tantrum near the temple of the one (... oh and threaten to destroy the manifest universe). No my bet is that the people who joined were dissatisfied with the monarchy or Akatosh - saw it as corrupt, fat, old and more damage than it was worth. psychologically the guard had become the corrupt guardian and in its protection prevents growth. They sought to overthrow that and to learn that they are as immortal and made of infinity as the next daedra. They did not bargain for what they asked for - they got pain and destruction - OR - perhaps all the destruction and visions of hell are what mortals who fear death of the self would see when confronted with infinity.

That is how I see it - like Tibetan Bardos where upon death the Buddhas come and try and teach that you are not your body and as you resist this they then show you by dismembering your body and eating it. If you can let go and accept the loss of the material body then you have a chance of escaping rebirth and if you cannot the manner in which you run or hide from this aweful truth is the path you take in your next rebirth - whether that be an actual birth or just a new decision you make in life.

From a political viewpoint:
I dislike the absence of questions about the right to rule by the Akatoshian-Aedra and their protectors. Just because they have an amulet and invisible gods - they can't be corrupted or grow weak in other areas? They never gave into bullying or other aspects of power? I think not.

From a Religious viewpoint:
I dislike the way the Daedra were conceived mostly as brute demons or devils who punish the living. No major attempts to portray the world they were trying to create - the order they bring. The revelation that they are not demons but there to provide a different order. [and those ideas are right there in the end of the game itself].

The lack of asking these questions leaves this game, for me, in the realm of high fantasy -- a fantasy that really appeals to folks who like to serve. Certainly in my head this is teen rated game. I've not played servant of the Dawn but if the rationale the character has for re-engaging Nehrunes-Dagon is purely from some blackgaurd, unresolved issues kind of self torment - I don't think I ever will. Nor am I that interested in playing the main quest again (for a good long while).

I really like Onra's position that modding has gotten really good at the technical but the lore and essential backstory that is there (in volumes) rarely makes it to mods. So where is the sinister - that is called sinister not because it is about harming people, but because it advocates a viewpoint that those in power don't want you to have because it threatens them.

As old gods die and new ones are born the priests of the current age look forward and all they can see is the end of the world.

Oh sorry, I have made a typo! It was supposed to say:

"... Outcome in either case would not be a revolution because that would be a TC..."

The motive of that mod would be just like any other guild in game, you have a struggle, at the end nothing significantly changes.

Sorry to almost double post but wanted to respond to that statement.

In Mount and Blade modding there are mods that seek to portray the medieval world of the 12th century in as realistic political and religious terms as possible. Mods attempt to set up the the world so that when game play starts it is leaning toward how history we know occured, but with your intervention you change history. Perhaps the Teutonic order goes into the 13th century as the only major super power - or the baltic pagans take all of europe.

I think lore should serve to set a background and material for a story - not be the chains that prevent any new content - just more go fetch quests.

Eh, I could clean the real-world political clap-trap back and forth between a couple of members but it would wipe out half the thread. You folks know the rule about political discussion - thanks for ignoring it. :stare:

OP, if you want to possibly restart a topic about a mod that introduces some sort of political upheaval and structure into Oblivion, PM me first and we can discuss the best way to go about it.