It's a Health POINTS pool, not the vaguely Omni-meaningful physical attribute that does whatever........ talk it in circles til it's a pretzel, a Health pool is still just a measure of points going from fully alive to dead, that's it. bliviongate:

No we are not done because "=fail" is not an adequate argument.

Whether or not anyone agrees with those mechanics(str,agi,int) being derived from health,magika and stamina is irrelevant. All i'm hearing is it's not possible but i'm here to tell you it is possible because Bethesda can do whatever the hell they want with their game. Whether or not it pans out in the end will remain to be seen but it's absolutely pointless to make assumptions based on partial information.

So - simple question. How do I make a fast character?

1. I raise the speed attribute ... which is no longer there
2. I choose a perk that makes me faster - in which case perks are substitutes for attributes
3. I don't - in which case every character is the same speed, and that would really svck.

If 1 is true, and Bethesda is not stupid enough to do 3, then that leaves either 2 or something else that we don't yet know about. Maybe extrapolating speed from stamina (which doesn't really make much sense since they are very different). Or something else. or bethesda really is that willing to neuter the game. We'll see.

Actually, you make your character faster by holding down the sprint button. Problem solved.

OF COURSE!!! The "old attributes" in Oblivion were just "random numbers" that "through a formula" suddenly became non-random and meaningful! Do you even read what you're writing before you post? :rofl:

Brilliant evasion of a logical point there!!!
:clap:

Yes, I could have a health bar be a stand in for endurance if I am too lazy to simulate some value or set of values that would constitute endurance. Games are free to manipulate values any which way they choose. For that purpose we should explore the ultimate in character devaluation. For the sake of evolving into simplistic mediocrity....perhaps TES should be more like another awesome video game. Their system was wrapped up into almost nothing:

Tech tree/skills:

level 1: small, run, jump
level 2: attained by eating mushroom, get bigger, increase health by 1
level 3: attained by eating fire flower, attain ability to spit fireballs

health meter:
hit once while small = dead
fall down a pit = dead
get hit while big = get small, lose ability to spit fire if ability present

special skill: grab star = invincible

I am pretty sure that game did well, so it may be a good system for TES to copy. One can mentally rp in the rest. :mohawk:

its their product and when we buy it, its our game. some curtesy would be appreaciated. I know the change to the system doesn't negatively affect everyone but it needlessly excludes a whole demographic. the change was not truely necessary, contary to the opinion of some people attributes were not broke (todd never says that they had to fix the system he says that they wanted to change it up a bit and make the game play flow seemlessly into individual play style) when OB came out people were not screaming that the attributes were all wrong, because they had existed previously in MW and they worked in both titles. what went wrong was leveled enemies and loot which forced people to develop their characters in unintended ways, forcing people to pick non-main skills and increase minor skills to maximize your health (weapon damage and armor rating) all this wasn't a problem in MW which had the same system. the problem is not perks, what is broken is the leveling system for enemies and loot being magnitized to your level, and we have heard not nearly enough about what they did to fix that if any thing at all.

Do you even read someone's post before you post flames that have no merit? The old attributes represented no in-depth information about your character at all, just like the guy was talking about in his anology. The Health, Fatigue and Magicka were the meaningful and non-random results. The old attributes showed nothing about a character except for a number 1-100 that had some unseen effect on your stats. The old attributes were just a front to the true characteristics of the character.



You registered today and your already well on your way to getting a warning by flaming and shooting down other peoples logical posts because they don't fit your feelings on the matter. My post wasn't an evasion at all, it was completely serious. Sprint is Athletics and speeds replacement. If you want to run faster, hold the sprint button down.

Excellent anology! Dead on :gun: :poke:

That's probably what some of the perks are going to be. Some will probably be certain stat does X more damage or an increase in effect such as 10% higher speed. I hoping that none of the perks are skill increasing perks but added effects. Fallout 3 made that mistake with Gun Nut and Company.

I'm a little bit concerned as to how the Perks are going to replace Attributes but I'll just have to wait and see.

...



I see no real value in this discussion other than a desire to see bsg make a game I would enjoy playing.



Your key phrase here is "on top". Which I assume to be "along with." A system with attributes, and skills, AND perks would develop the most well rounded characters. With this I agree.

1) I have lots of Health high carry weight perk, heavy armor perk, 2H weapon perk, higher melee damage perk, so I strong=FAILWIN
-------Troll FAIL^

Good, then your going to love Skyrim because it has attributes, skills AND perks. Glad to see we are all on the same page now.

You really need to learn that the object of these discussions is to exchange ideas, not to 'win' :rolleyes:

FO3 is not really a great comparison because it did not have an attribute system exactly like OB or MW. the only stats really relevent to the construction of a character (physical) type were the endurance and strength which affected health increase every level and how much you could carry. every thing else was revolving around skills, in that nearly every action was governed by your skill rather than your SPEACIAL, besides the occasional (and more common in NV) check to intellegence, agility, strength...etc. so perks like gun nut were (depending on perspective I suppose) fairly relevent. at least I used alot of them to try and maximize my damage with weapons or being able to pick all locks.

and I don't think TES should be converted into that kind of format of defering everything to perks, perks are fine, perks are fun, but perks are not the most ideal system for building characters (especially for roleplay)

How was this about "winning"? It's about trying to show everyone how all the pieces fit together to show the big picture to everyone and let them see the potential of Skyrim. I really don't see how I was trying to "win", if I was trying to win I would've said "There, I win :devil:". Not sure where you got the whole "win" thing from.

Have you heard the phrase "natural evolution"?

Not sure what the facepalm is for. This is why I was hoping we were on the same page now for. It is a FACT that attributes are still in the game. H/M/S are in fact, the attributes that actually matter as well.

Flaming? Logical? You use these terms in the loosest possible way, just because you write it doesn't make it true. I exposed a fatal flaw in you're "logic" and then you respond with a threat, which would be a flame post by any definition. If you're too thin skinned to simply admit that saying something as nonsensical as random numbers being input into a formula ends in something other than a random result, then you should be more worried that it is you're feelings on the subject getting in the way of having a decent sensible dialogue.
I like Bethesda, & TES is a awesome series of games. Skyrim still doesn't release until November, it's not quite finished. I believe the goal is to help to see another great game published. As I stated in a previous post, there is still no official printed statement on this topic from Bethesda. So, continued spouting of conjecture with no basis in a workable system to back it up just proves that it's pointless to pay attention to to such comments.
Btw having been on the forum longer does not entitle you to try to supress someone else's thoughts, right? Right.

Please don't bore yourself then. Feel free to ignore threads or topics you find too dull to reply to. It takes much less effort to ignore the thread you aren't interested in than actually making a derogatory post implying you are wasting your time. Likewise spamming emotes as replies.

If ever there was a topic that bred so many pro attribute flag wavers...cant even make an opinion in here

Yes. Wade through (or, better yet, ignore) all the enormous, reeking piles of rhetoric and equivocation regarding attributes and perks and so forth and so on, and all the carefully parsed nonsense about how this thing hasn't been removed even though it's not there any more even though it was just random and never did anything even though it was such a dire necessity to keep track of it and increase it as much as possible that it ruined the game, and so on, and so on, and so on....... and this is what it boils down to.

How do you make a fast character? There is no speed attribute, so... how? Through perks alone? If that's the case, who qualifies for them? If all perks are related to skills (which has been stated, though not clearly enough to take it as absolute and unequivocal fact), then what skills will the speed-boosting perks be related to? Armor? That means, as I noted earlier, that an unarmored character (who logically should be instantly faster than an armored one) would be completely barred from getting those perks. He'd have to go out of his way to wear armor and grind the skill just to get the perk. Isn't that part of what getting rid of attributes was supposed to prevent? But if speed perks aren't tied to armor, what are they tied to? Weapon skill? Which one? Marksman? That means no fast swordsman. One handed? That means no fast archers. And if not that, then what? Would they just be available as general perks, to anyone? Then what difference does it make what sort of character you make? Just put an Orc in heavy armor and slap a few speed perks on him and there'd never be any reason for light armor or fast races or anything else.

We all get that the core attributes are gone (or whatever the hell you want to call them - call them fried noodles if you want and it won't change anything) and the only ones left are the derived attributes (or fluoridated toothpastes or candied yams or whatever) and that some combination of those derived attributes (hot wheels cars/50 watt lightbulbs/brass spittoons) and perks are to manage the things formerly managed by the original core attributes (Pomeranians/poker chips/nacho cheese doritoes). How? That's the question now. Not why or whether it'll be better or worse, but how?

You didn't point out any flaw in my logic, you just put in a clap emote and said I evaded a conversation. Not sure how giving evidence from articles isn't logical conversation as opposed to "Your wrong lololololol". Also, there doesn't have to be an official document from BGS (which there never has been), all the information given in articles are official information. I'm not seeing how I was suppressing your thoughts, it was the other way around by you laughing someone else's post down when we have official information as evidence.

OT, Like I said, Todd said that there will be 12-20 perks per Skill tree and that perks will affect Skills and weapon types. All the old attribute effects are still in the game and chances are some of them are bound to the new attributes or embedded in the game in some other place.