I know theres been a debate over attributes blah blah...im for having them out...now i was thinking "hey, its great having the attributes gone..they were redundent anyways...they can just put them in perks" but then i thought about how well they can divide these perks...what if they dont divide what attributes like endurance does an instead make it like endurance plus 10 instead of "faster swinging" or "resistances to diseases" its kind of a step back if u think about it...i.e we want attributes hidden away but we put a bunch of stat raise perks in the game amyways...given theres 280 perks in the game i can see them takin this shortcut...for a message of "full immersion" this would break that viel..so do u guys think bethesda can take this perk thing to a whole new level or are they still stuck in there old rpg roots of spread sheet character development? Sry for the long read

considering how I will be required to pick the perks give me those increases at the sacrafice of picking other perks, and how before you could increase those affects without sacraficing gameplay styles, porting attributes into things that are not attributes seems like the opposite of the goal todd stated, which was allow any character be played they way the player disired.

perks are not replacing attributes the three attributes we have are replacing the rest

health, magicka, stamina are not attributes. Perks replace attributes.

Pete said the former 8 attributes have been folded into perks AND the health/magicka/stamina stats.

For what has been explained now, perks expend on the skill system. As perks effect only one skill, they do not replace attributes.

they so are attributes, if they are not then what do you call them?
and they will mainly replace the other attributes becuase they are the most related to the others, there will probably be a few perks that have a lot to do with the old attributes but for the most part I think it is going to be the attributes we have

Well i dont like the removal of attributes im just saying what they said. There are no attributes. Perks are "meant" to replace them.

Do you think there will be some minor achievement related perks?
(For example, in FNV, if you kill X enemies with melee weapons, you get a small melee perk, etc.)

This is probably the thing that most concerns me about the perks - certainly it's the thing that most concerns me at the moment.

With the elimination of the speed attribute, I really see only two possible ways that movement speed can be dealt with - either it will be fixed (and it wouldn't be the first Beth title to have such a thing, so I count that as a genuine possibility, disastrous though it might be to both differentiation between races and differentiation between combat styles), or any gains in speed will have to be handled through perks.

Setting aside the first possibility with nothing more than the observation that it would be a teeth-gnashingly stupid thing for Beth to do - the second brings on at least three immediate problems.

1. In past game, characters who most needed speed - lightly and unarmored characters who needed to avoid damage as much as possible - gained it automatically and instantly simply by not wearing armor. Less encumbrance = more movement speed, immediately. If movement speed (and encumbrance, for that matter) are perk-dependent, then that natural and obviously realistic gain in movement speed is simply gone.

2. If movement speed is perk-dependent, then my unarmored swordsman, who in the past could pour all of his skill increases into blade and thus become that much more skilled as a fighter (a necessary thing, since he couldn't afford to stand around and let whatever he was fighting hit him over and over), is going to have to pick speed-enhancing perks in addition to and potentially even in place of weapon skill enhancing perks. In order to gain the advantage of increased speed that he would have gotten otherwise simply by not lugging around a tin suit, he'll have to go out of his way to pick those perks and give up others.

3. If movement speed perks are available, I see no way in which an unarmored character is going to be any more likely to qualify for them than an armored one is, meaning that I could just as easily give my tank the same movement speed increases, and that any advantage to lighter or no armor entirely vanishes. Beyond that, there's a strong possibility that movement speed increases will be tied to armor skills, meaning that an unarmored character will NOT be able to gain movement speed. He not only won't gain it by dint of not dragging around that extra weight, but won't gain it AT ALL.

So, the way I see it, at best, perks substituting for attributes will be too readily available, and thus we'll lose differentiation between characters, and they'll require the choice of those perks instead of other, arguably more useful perks like weapon and armor skills, magic skills, what-have-you. Rather than gains in core attributes like speed coming naturally and allowing an increase in skills alongside them, they'll have to be increased instead of skills. And at worst, with the likelihood that those perks will be tied to skills, they'll be set up in such a way that characters who should gain in those attributes simply by dint of being that sort of character won't be able to gain in them at all, simply by dint of not specializing in whatever the appointed skill might be.

The whole thing seems, to me, to be clunky at best.

Of course, as with all of this, we'll see.....

actually health, magicka and stamina are not attributes... they are macro attributes. and if attributes were the middlemen, but they supposedly all of their affects are still in the game, doesn't that mean the middlemen still exist but are just not visable too you any more? if so, what was the point, its a big circle and its alienated alot of people.

btw. perks and attributes have nothing to do with each other, the con-attributes people just keep derailing the direction of the debate towards "perks will fix that" when any of the many issues with the structure of this new system. perks done right will be awesome, don't take it out on them.

My apologies, most of this post is a word for word cut from a post earlier today. But adding to this thread will hopefully add to the discussion...

We have four separate but interconnected systems that we are talking about here:

1. life status bars - real time status that goes up and down as you are doing things (health, magicka, stamina)
2. attributes - group character factors that impact multiple things (strength, willpower, etc.)
3. skills - unique factors governing single points of game play (blade, armour, destruction, etc)
4. tech trees - perks, unlocking abilities (low level player casts fixed magnitude spell, a perk allows character to manipulate magnitude, etc)

Those applauding attribute removal don't seem to understand that while these things, as systems, are similar...they are not the same. The removal of the attribute system eliminates a simple method to create complex interactions between the skills, the life meters, and the gaming system. Removing those base variables but leaving in their effects and shoe-horning those effects into the skills, health bars, and perk tree basically eliminates the layer that is necessary to create "simple" complexity of interactions between the variables.

Forget perks for a second. Can you imagine a SR that has 100 unique skills? 200? Without those base values that govern these skills it becomes an impossible task as you need to perfect how each skill interacts with other interactions in the game on its own. Without those tied links back to some base values this would be an unbelievably complex task where the devs would then have to start cutting skills (heh!) and dumbing down the game (reducing fortify impacts, heh!) just so that they do not become overwhelmed with fine-tuning the details of having a game with hundreds of unique variables and nothing to hold them together.

So, what you end up getting is maybe a game with lots of neat bells and whistles and flat characters. Instead of having a potion to fortify your strength when you come upon a dragon, you will have a series of dragon toots, or 4-5 different potions, that will kinda sorta do something similar if you use them all together.

Let's pretend for a second the dev's thought about complexity of game play and imagined a scenario of increasing the number of skills from 20 to 100.

- With the old attributes system you needed 8 attributes for 20 some skills.
- With the old attributes system you would need 8 attributes for 100 skills.
- With an updated/fixed attributes system you would need 8 attributes for 100 skills.

- Shoehorning attributes into a perk tree you apparently need to have 280 perks for 18 skills.
- Shoehorning attributes into perk tree you would need to have about 1,500 perks for 100 skills.

Anybody else see the glaring problem with this? With a functional attributes system -AND- a perk tree working together you would have simple dynamics and potential for unlimited variability in the skills. It would be heaven for the modders out there.

Some things we will never know:

- how much development time was flushed down the toilet because attributes were shoehorned into a tech tree and status bars?
- rather than cutting skills, how many new ones could have been added if developers were not wasting time trying to fit attributes into a perk tree?

Now gamer interview ---- http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1316/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-bethesda-interview?o=4#listing



do you see perks? oh no? well look at that, from what Im reading just as I would click a button in Oblivion to raise skills on level up, thats what Im doing for my status bars H/M/S


Giant Bomb --- http://www.giantbomb.com/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/61-33394/



Oh...look at that....perks and the simplified attributes are different too....shocking


1up http://www.1up.com/previews/elder-scrolls-skyrim-seven-things-need-to-know




Oh look Silly rabbit, Perks are for skills...
wonder how long it takes until people realize perks ARE NOT attributes?

Well firstly, most of the attributes abilities are inherent in the game, most of them aren't going to be perks.

However, even if the old attributes were all perks in Skyrim, how is it wasting perks to pick them? That's like saying you wasted points on attributes in the old system. The majority of the old attributes effects are still bound in the new attributes, which you still choose when you level up in addition to a perk.

@MK They don't affect the new attributes. However, perks do affect at least one of the old attributes. Strength. It used to be that strength and weapon skill decided your damage with weapons, now it's perks and weapon skill. So basically, it effectively replaced strength. However, most of the other effects will most likely be bound to the new attributes or elsewhere in the game, such as speed and athletics are now Sprint, encumbrance is most likely in Stamina and so on.

it would be wasting them in the sense that it would be like treating skill increases in FO3 as perks instead and having to decide between picking a perk that increases my skill rather than getting cannabalism perk which doesn't help in any substantial sense but adds gameplay elements. I am not saying perks are bad, I am saying tying in the affects attributes used to do into a perk selection diminishes the quality of the perk system as well. it all comes back to the fact that attributes were not what was wrong with building characters but that enemies and loot leveling based on character level turned increasing attributes into a race against the attributes of enemies. its not a substantial arguement to reduce the affects of attributes (like encumberance) into a perk even if it works for you, but it doesn't work for alot of people like me simply because I like a gradual increase of my CHaracters qualities rather than a boost every level. other wise I don't feel like I've earned. we all know that your side of the debate is that "well I feel that I earned it" but I don't, and thats not going to change, so this change to attributes, is a bad change for me. you cannot reasonably say other wise. because you would be then telling me that you know what I like and don't like better than I do.

P.S I think that comes off a bit heated but thats not the emotion of what I was trying to express. at most I am mildly annoyed.

EDIT: also you could be right about some of them not being perks any ways, although none of us know for sure, my opinion is that most of the perks will be skill related with a few misc that are for fun. I have been against this whole perks VS attributes because I don't think they are mutually exclusive (we can have both just fine) my argument on this thread is based on the hypothesis that perks DO replace attributes in some ways.

Good, you don't have to be anymore as attributes (new or old) aren't tied into the perk system (except strength but it's just a damage increase to combat skills). The old attributes effects are still in the game somewhere else in the game. Most of the old attribute's effects will probably be tied to the new attributes or placed somewhere else in the game (sprint being one of those). They aren't bound to the perk system.

Edit: Your right, attributes and perks aren't mutually exclusive as we have attributes with perks in the Skyrim already. However, the old attributes are mutually exclusive with the new attributes, thus is why we don't need the old attributes anymore. Basically it's just people wanting to keep the old 8 words that labeled attributes as the old attributes functions are still in the game. Besides, the old 8 attributes names weren't really attributes, they are more traits then anything. Health, Stamina and Magicka however are attributes. So I'm really confused why most people don't like the removal of the old 8 attributes as the new system does the SAME thing they did and more. Plus with the new attributes, there is a bigger choice to pick from in attributes. Before you picked 3 of 8 attributes, which is a little over a third. With the new attributes, when you level up you pick 1 of 3 attributes, which is a third of your attributes.

you don't know that for sure. but i have additional concerns regarding what I heard some one say that weapon damage will mostly determined by perks rather than skill, which in my mind elimenates the need of even having skills. Idk if thats true, I seriously doubt that has been confirmed. but if thats how it is it will be very hard for me to enjoy the game.

Yes....yes I do know for sure, Todd has already said that all the old attributes effects are still in the game.

:tes:
Here's my take on the hidden attributes deal, given what little info has been confirmed: Health, Stamina, & Magicka(H/S/M) will not be attributes, they will be stats(statistics) determined by the now invisible atts(attributes)-

1) The "attributes" (now invisible to the Skyrim players) will be increased by Skill points & their associated perks invested in the various weapon, armor, magic, stealth, crafting & (to a smaller or possibly no extent) social skills, as well as generic points that are given upon level ups to be assigned to H/S/M at the players discretion,

2) Luck is no longer an "attribute", gameplay ability and the skill/perk system will determine success/failure in all actions, hence eliminating time spent deliberating which atts to invest in.

3) Skills and perks that are related strengthen overall ability when multiple different skills/perks from the same major category (combat, stealth, or magic) are assigned points.
Example: A player that invests points into heavy melee weapons(2 handers, maces & axes), heavy armor, and mining/logging will increase their strength-(carry capacity, melee damage bonuses, & melee damage effects chance such as stun/knockdown) & endurance-(health & stamina pools/recovery rates, poison/disease resistance, physical damage resistance/reduction) The only visible changes for this character would be increased carry cap, health, & stamina, as well as stun/knockdown frequency against enemies the player engages in melee combat.

4) This system will cause a natural build-up towards a traditional warrior character class role until skills/perks from other major skill sets (stealth/magic) are increased through practice & use.
Example: Using the lock spell on a container then lockpicking it, repeatedly, to increase intelligence & willpower thus improving bonuses to those and other skills governed by int & will.

The choice to eliminate the visibility of the attributes is a smart move on the part of the Elder Scrolls team. :thumbsup:

just because all of the old attribute effects are still in the game does not exclude them from being in perk form, nothing in that sentence says or suggests that attribute affects will not be in perk form. I am not very convinced as of yet that attributes effects will be in perk form but I don't declare it either way a certainty and citing a vague and unrevealing statement as confirmation. the only reason I am doing this back and forth is because I have a pet peave about people stating perspectives as fact... that being said I realize that I am getting off topic, so I will set my peaves aside and contribute to this thread in ways not regarding this specific back and forth.

H/M/S are attributes, not stats. They are real attributes that you choose when you level up, just like old attributes used to and they might even have extra effects as well. For those that keep saying they aren't attributes, they are. It's already been said by Todd that they are attributes and we know you raise them when you level just like attributes. Besides, the old attributes weren't really attributes, they were traits. The effects they governed were attributes but that really comes down to H/M/S and a few second hand effects that are embedded either in the new attributes or behind the scenes.



It was also said in other articles that perks effect skills and weapon types. To be a perk, the secondary effects of the old attributes have to fit under a skill. Encumbrance doesn't fit with anything, so chances are encumbrance will be linked with Stamina. Personality is most likely merged with Speechcraft (speechcraft is still in the game.) Luck is most likely a passive modifier (like it was originally) Speed is now in Sprint and so on. There are plenty of ways to explain how the secondary effects will be in the game without perks and also you have to take into account that the secondary effects must have something to do with a skill to be a perk, which most of them do not.

The only two arguments I see against the removal of attributes are;

"I don't get to have my cake and eat it too"

and "Arbitrary Numbers = Roleplay"


I'm glad attributes are gone, as we know them in Elder Scrolls. I would have rather had them retooled to work better, but Taking them out was better than leaving them in as we stand. They didn't actually do anything particularly unique. Basically, we lost our Fractions and hanging decimals, in favor of whole numbers. 1 point in strength raises your DPS by 0.2, well, one perk in Swords raises your DPS by 5.0, then again, maybe you're all math majors, and get a kick out of running a thousand different equations to end up at the same place as 5+5.

A less arbitrarily complex system is much easier to balance, it creates relatively fewer, but more meaningful individual choices for Character Development, and it removes that obtuse "Multiplier" system, that kept reminding the player of the game mechanics, and any time you are reminded of the physical mechanics of the game itself, it tears you out of the immersive experience.

Actually, I think the main issue in this whole mess is people keep saying "removal of attributes" when in reality, attributes weren't removed at all. They are still in the game, just not in the same form as they were before. Really, the only thing that was removed was the 8 words that were the names of the old attributes.

There could be 10 Perks per skill and 100 other miscellaneous perks.

It seems a lot like the mysticism issue, the title is removed, not the function.

I still stand by the belief that the Attributes in Oblivion were not only worthless to the game (Speed excluded) but actually detrimental to immersion. I really don't want to be thinking about having go make those 5x multipliers for the next level every waking minute.