Rescue the Books! (Initiative)

Post » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:01 pm

[img]http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/thumbs/25782-1-1247518383.jpg[/img]
When I played Morrowind the single strongest point of the entire game was for me, Vivec character’s development, House Dagoth, Dagoth Ur & the Dwemer history. This means that the way the game introduced the story of these two elements seemed masterful in every sense. For Vivec I suppose it was related with my personal experience and the timing in which I read the book that narrated the adventures of the legendary demigod. As the game advances I was learning more and more about this character and thought it was a mere adding to the lore and ancient history of Vvanderfell but the surprise came when actually he was not a legendary character but alive in his Ziggurat and I was granted a permit to see him!
This added a lot of complexity to the story script and encouraged me to learn more about the lore of Tamriel. Suddenly gamesas achieved a complex and enticing character in the game… without the books and background history about Vivec he would have been another NPC in the game that lived on the top of a Ziggurat without much relevance to the player. It wasn’t the architecture of the city and the church’s quarters, or the guard and districts that surprise and awe the player but the strongest factor to achieve the amazement of the player was the humble story script in the books of the game and most of all the timing in which you learned the lore of the different elements as you progress in Morrowind.

[img]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW-creature-Vivec.jpg[/img] [img]http://images.uesp.net/thumb/d/d0/Dwemer_parchments_copy.jpg/350px-Dwemer_parchments_copy.jpg[/img] [img]http://images.uesp.net/thumb/2/25/Dagoth_Ur.jpg/180px-Dagoth_Ur.jpg[/img]
Same with the Dwemer or House Dagoth & Dagoth Ur since you learn about the history as you play through the game. The books aren’t just a decorative element they intertwine with the game and support each other. The book that weren’t mere leisure stories but added critical knowledge on parts of the game you’d be later playing were what added the strongest factor to complexity and amazement to the game.
The explained above could have been explored and developed more in Oblivion but instead it was semi-abandoned. The single most fatal error for me was to meet the single most complex character in the game, Uriel Septim, just as you start the game and kill it in the first minutes. It was like to kill the main character in a film in the first minutes; nobody would care, but if you develop the story of that character and build bonds between him/her & the public the events that happen to him/her would be much more relevant.
For example I expected some sort of continuity to the characters of the game series. Seeing a tired and paranoic Caius Cosades in Cyrodiil, overwhelmed in his task of protecting the emperor and properly developed his history through pages of his diaries or pieces of accounting books of the blades. Or learning about the history of Martin Septim and what happened to him before and after the events of Oblivion, thinking those books or records are mere decoration to the story script and Martin Septim just would be a far emperor in his Ivory Tower in Cyrodill only to get the surprise of seeing him on a skirmish expedition to Skyrim to pacify the region, offering a daunting view of an older and powerful Martin on a war horse in front of an enormous battalion of soldiers and knights. But I repeat; no matter how spectacular are the graphics or the voice acting if there’s not enough development of the character history through books or any other mean like videos or told stories by minstrels the character won’t surprise and amaze the player as it could. And not only characters can be protagonist but places as well, it’s more exciting to visit a ruin that you know its history. And even better how some elements you find in those ruins, as part of a quest, help you more to understand the ancient civilization and history of the race that build it. Actually there should be more quest related to the finding of more lore about a particular subject, and its reading or learning opens you new options of dialogue and rewards like the restoration of lost ruins by the empire or other events which complement the “fetch & kill” aspect of the game.

[img]http://images.uesp.net/thumb/8/88/OB-npc-Martin.jpg/180px-OB-npc-Martin.jpg[/img] [img]http://images.uesp.net/thumb/e/ef/MW-npc-Caius_Cosades.jpg/180px-MW-npc-Caius_Cosades.jpg[/img]
I don’t know if the scripter and writer that worked for gamesas in Morrowind never worked for them again ever since but since Morrowind their games have diminished progressively in their lore reaching to Fallout 3 where the books were mere decoration elements and the lore was almost absent. Oblivion (recycling a lot of books from Morrowind) and Fallout 3 seemed nice and huge at the beginning but turned just fetch objects and kill people or “fetch & kill” games eventually as I call them. Without a proper lore and stories related with the events of the game the games lack attractive and end up being repetitive. So sometimes it is good leading your player by the hand in the sense of when he starts a mission, the people who sends him on a quest may recommend reading some lore books related with the task at hand. Just like Caius Cosades did in Morrowind, player still have the option of reading it or not and they add complexity and rewards those who choose to read. There’s other narrative options available as I mentioned like minstrels or videos but books is the easiest and more romantic way in my opinion.
Community Suggestion Wiki
One last question and suggestion to gamesas and the community is about there is a wiki page where the community can make suggestions for the series like this one and those be classified in an easy and MySQL database style page for easy access by gamesas developers and top brass and community modders? The best example that I know of collaborative work in a game is in the ArmA modding community in the http://dev-heaven.net/ page. Creating something like this for the eleder scrolls series would be great for its improvement. It would be cool to add a system of voting to discern what are the most demanded suggestions for the game.

http://dev-heaven.net/
If you agree with my suggestions and want them included in Skyrim or future ES games vote or reply to this thread adding your suggestions and asking the moderators to make it a sticky thread and hoping some of them would be included or people in the community like uesp or tesnexus pages decides to make a wiki of suggestions like http://dev-heaven.net/.
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Sammi Jones
 
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Post » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:31 am

you shouldn't really ask for a sticky :/
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gandalf
 
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Post » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:58 pm

We already do have the forums for suggestions and as I understand it the concerns of the player base do go out to Bethesda workers assuming they read the forums. And yes you shouldn′t ask for a sticky. But I agree on the books and lore thing, would like to see more depth to key characters in the series when Skyrim is out.
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Zach Hunter
 
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Post » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:26 am

I don't think there will be any problem with books. I'm gonna quote loremaster Seti18 on this one:

The only problem with your claim, and it's just a tiny, little one, is that you're completely wrong. I've done some actual research into this matter instead of blindly complaining about the same misconception other people do, and the results came up as about 90 books being written for Daggerfall, about 230 being written for Morrowind, and about 140 being written for Oblivion. Oblivion added plenty and the only way 80% of Oblivion's books could have been copied and pasted directly from the books created for Morrowind would have been if Morrowind had 560 books created for it and all of them were copy-pasted to Oblivion. Neither of those requirements are even close to true.

Books created for Oblivion:

Spoiler

1. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Life_of_Uriel_Septim_VII
2. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rislav_The_Righteous
3. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri
4. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_the_Fighters_Guild
5. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness
6. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Five_Tenets
7. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Followers_of_the_Gray_Fox
8. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hiding_With_the_Shadow
9. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manifesto_Cyrodiil_Vampyrum

10. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancer%27s_Moon
11. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pension_of_the_Ancestor_Moth
12. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar
13. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief
14. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Warrior
15. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King
16. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_1
17. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_2

18. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_3
19. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_4
20. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar_Prince
21. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Exodus
22. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Knightfall
23. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Purloined_Shadows
24. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Refugees
25. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief_of_Virtue
26. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Adabal-a

27. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings
28. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor
29. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man
30. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cleansing_of_the_Fane
31. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daughter_of_the_Niben
32. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer_History_and_Culture
33. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fall_of_Vitharn
34. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Last_King_of_the_Ayleids
35. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Legendary_Sancre_Tor

36. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lost_Histories_of_Tamriel
37. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Remanada
38. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_1
39. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_2
40. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_3
41. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_4
42. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_5
43. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6
44. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_7

45. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Treatise_on_Ayleidic_Cities
46. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Advances_in_Lock_Picking
47. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text
48. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bark_and_Sap
49. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Calcinator_Treatise
50. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:De_Rerum_Dirennis
51. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:An_Elytra%27s_Life
52. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_Frog_to_Man
53. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fundaments_of_Alchemy
54. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heavy_Armor_Repair

55. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_Lock_Picking
56. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood
57. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Light_Armor_Repair
58. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Liminal_Bridges
59. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lithnilian%27s_Research_Notes
60. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Liturgy_of_Affliction
61. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Living_Woods
62. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mace_Etiquette
63. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

64. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Armor
65. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Arms
66. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Spellcraft
67. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Xedilian
68. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Predecessors
69. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Proper_Lock_Design
70. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods
71. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Saints_and_Seducers
72. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Apothecary

73. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Bestiary
74. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Souls,_Black_and_White
75. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Standing_Stones
76. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Daedra
77. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Exposed_Palm
78. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Agnar%27s_Journal
79. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Amantius_Allectus%27_Diary
80. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ancotar%27s_Journal
81. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Bloody_Journal
82. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Brenus_Astis%27_Journal

83. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cap%27n_Dugal%27s_Journal
84. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cindanwe%27s_Notebook
85. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dar-Ma%27s_Diary
86. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Diary_of_Springheel_Jak
87. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Doors_of_Oblivion
88. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Field_Journal
89. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Journal
90. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Father_of_the_Niben

91. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frostcrag_Spire_Memoirs
92. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gelebourne%27s_Journal
93. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greywyn%27s_Journal
94. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Grommok%27s_Journal
95. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus
96. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Log_of_the_Emma_May
97. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Path_of_Transcendence
98. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ramblings_of_Audens_Avidius
99. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Red_Kitchen_Reader

100. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sacred_Witness
101. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sir_Amiel%27s_Journal
102. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traelius%27_Journal

103. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traitor%27s_Diary
104. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Macabre_Manifest
105. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Report:_Disaster_at_Ionith
106. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_(book)
107. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterium_Xarxes
108. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tome_of_Unlife
109. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legend_of_Krately_House
110. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms
111. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Ravings_of_Fenroy
112. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Song_of_Hrormir
113. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial

114. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myth_or_Menace%3F
115. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._VI
116. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._IX
117. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._XII
118. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bible_of_the_Deep_Ones
119. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Blessings_of_Sheogorath
120. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Divining_the_Elder_Scolls
121. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heretical_Thoughts

122. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Modern_Heretics
123. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_1
124. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_2
125. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3
126. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_4
127. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myths_of_Sheogorath
128. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie
129. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Prophet_Arden-Sul
130. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarr_and_the_Divines
131. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ten_Commands:_Nine_Divines
132. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia

133. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Glories_and_Laments
134. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Anvil
135. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bravil
136. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bruma
137. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Cheydinhal
138. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Chorrol
139. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_the_Imperial_City
140. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Leyawiin
141. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_New_Sheoth
142. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Skingrad




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JaNnatul Naimah
 
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Post » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:48 am

Can we get a plain "No" option in the poll, without the "Me no read, hurr durr" bias factor please?

Because...well frankly, "Lore important- yes. Database of suggestions, not so much." All the suggestions are already recorded- see, there's this "Skyrim General Discussion" forum just full of'em.
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A Lo RIkIton'ton
 
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Post » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:43 am

I read books but not only in game, mostly i check lore up on sites when i am not in the mood of gaming ...
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Kayla Bee
 
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Post » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:49 am

So if a game doesn't have enough books in it, it's a mindless hack and slash... smooth.

By the way, there are proper lore and stories in Oblivion, ever read the books around Martin? There even was a puzzle that required you to read books (or just wait 3 days if you're too lazy).

And how can there be books in Fallout 3? After the apocalypse, there hardly would be any prints, and what would they print anyway? Or you mean pre-war books? You know, there are other ways to preserve messages. What about the plaques in the museums, the messages in the computers, the audiologs you can find all over the place, and the old radio transmissions. Books aren't the only source of culture.
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Chavala
 
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