When we commit a crime, the guard show up to arrest us, we have 3 options

- pay the fine
- go to jail
- resist arrest

If we resist arrest, we MUST PAY IT WITH OUR LIFE

Now, it comes into question, when we choose to resist arrest, who is right and who is wrong? The guard(s) want to KILL us right there for the crime we do, even if we just steal a spoon.

- We must survive to live right?
- We must protect our own life
- We are in self defense

The guard(s) have no intention to capture us, instead they want to kill us for denying the arrest. Unless we yield to avoid being killed, we are likely being killed by them. If we did kill the guard(s), we becomes a murderer even though it is a self defense.

That is justice huh?

The real police will say "you have a right to remain silence, everything you say will be used to against you in the court of law", something like that. If we run away, the police will chase us to arrest, but not kill us. If we shoot them then they have a right to shoot us in their self defense.

It means the police job is to arrest us, not execute us.

But in Oblivion, the guards also the executioner. There are no court in Tamriel, it is like Judge Dread.

The Tamriel legal system has its basis in the civilized, reasonable credo uttered by the prophet Marukh in the first era: "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." Were truer word ever spoke? - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/legal-basics

"All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent."

That is not civilized lols

If that so anybody can just accuse anybody...

Logic, logic. You state that the guards offer to take us to jail. Then you state "The guard(s) have no intention to capture us, instead they want to kill us for denying the arrest." It has to be one of the other. It cannot be both.



Let me tell you something. It's the same in real life. I don't know how the police behave in Malaysia but in the United States if you resist arrest the police will use force. And I believe it is that way in most countries around the world.

In Oblivion we are given the option to pay a fine, to go to jail or to resist. This is actually less severe than in the United States, where we are often put in jail and we also have to pay a fine as well. If we are drunk and resist arrest we may end experiencing a little of all three: getting the crap beat out of us, paying a fine and serving jail time.



In the United States (and many other countries) a police officer can also be be the executioner.

The guards are right.

We've already been given one or two other options at this point, both of which are equally painless, in my opinion. We can do this the right way, and not be harmed at all, or we can choose not to be taken into custody. If we do it the right way, within a short period of time, we are free again.

For instance, we can murder someone, and possibly go to jail. Not for years, for days. Or we can pay a fine. If you think about it, a fine for a single murder isn't very much, considering the seriousness of the crime.

...I mean, I get your point. I get what you're saying: it's over-the-top for a guard to kill someone for stealing a spoon. But I don't necessarily think it's "bad". The guards at this point (after you've stated the fact that you're resisting) are just doing their job.



Sure it is.

The implication is obvious: do not resist arrest. If you do, the law allows the guards to take you down, and it is not considered murder in Cyrodiil for a guard to do this. They have the right to do so, and after they're done, they won't even have to take leave of their job, nor will they have to fill out endless forms (like American police do )>

Bottom line: don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. If you don't want to possibly get killed by a guard, don't do things that will make them come after you.


i would think Cyrodiilic law is nowhere near as complex as Earth laws are, when it comes to stuff like this.

We humans on Earth are smarter than the NPC's of Cyrodiil, for instance. Since we are smarter, our facets of behavior are much more complex. Our laws have to reflect the fact that not every crime demands a fight to the death, and that those who are captured are considered "innocent" (in theory) until proven guilty.

The main difference between Nirn and Earth policemen is that Cyrodiil's guards are all psychic. They somehow know without a doubt when we've comitted a crime. Since they automatically know this, it removes the whole "innocent until proven guilty" nonsense. They already know we're guilty, and therefore they become mobile judge/juries, as well as policemen.

You got me thinking way too much when I was just about to go to bed, Niza!

What i mean is, if we resist arrest, the guards have no intention to capture us, they just want to kill us, unless we yield.


malaysian police is the same like any other police in other countries. My late father work with the police but he was not a police, so i know a little bit about police work. My sister and brother are lawyers, so i know a bit about law.

The police will always use force to arrest. It is up to you to comply or resist.

The police can arrest you out of suspicion. They can detained you out of suspicion but not more than 3 days (3 days in police lock up), if there are no case, they must release you. If not, you can summon them in the court for take away your liberty.

The police cannot kill unless they are in danger themselves or the civilians are in danger. By means it is a self defense.

In Oblivion, the guards just kill you because you resist arrest.


I don't know about USA, but in my country, the police are not executioners, that is the job for the judges. What give a right to the police to execute people?


What if they are wrong?

I remember a quest, Corrupted Watchguard. I speak to him, then he accuse me of a crime, there is 1000 gold bounty on me, i resist, then all Imperial guards hunting me, guards in other town hunting me too..

What if all the guards are corrupted? Like i mention before, anybody can accuse anybody.

There are no lawyers and no court to prove i am innocent.


Sorry, it is afternoon here

Sometimes I wonder.....

There is a fourth option, and I do this when my Khajiit thief gets caught. Resist arrest...then run like Mehrunes Dagon himself is on your heels! As long as your bounty isn't high enough to automatically send the guards after you, and as long as you don't talk to any more guards until you get your bounty cleared, you can [eventually] get away.

It's good fun, and a great workout.

This if for UK Law, not sure about other countries legal system

But if you resist arrest, it is counted as GBH with Intent. In the UK that has a life sentence attached (max punishement)

Ordinary Ordinator: ha ha good point. I think I've met a few humans here on Earth with intelligence lower than that of a Cyrodiilic NPC.

How are they wrong? What.... You didn't commit any crime and you had a bounty?

That's one of the quests I'm not remembering; I'm not even sure I've ever done that one. But it's Thief Guild stuff, which makes me suspect you're dealing with "the brotherhood" at that point. Police like to stick up for their own, and if you're on a mission to debunk them, well it's gonna be pretty tough to prove your case, isn't it?

I imagine if you go through that questline, eventually you will prove your case. Even though I haven't done Corrupted Watchman, I know how stories work, and I'm guessing that eventually the Watchman , am I right?

If this is so, then this actually is a form of justice-in-progress. It's just not the same as how we'd do it on Earth.



They don't need courts and lawyers in Cyrodiil. The guards always know when we have or haven't commited a crime because they are all psychic. Or maybe they can see into our auras, and can see if we've done evil at some point.

Other than a proven glitch in one of my character's games, I cannot think of a single time my characters have not commited a crime, yet wound up with a bounty. This means that those guards have it right over 99% of the time. There is no need for lawyers and judges, then.

Reducing the spoilers here, it involves someone placing insanely high and unfair fines on people's heads. When you confront him about it, he pretends that you attacked him, which should have a small fine but because he has redesigned all the fines, assault (at the time during the quest) equates to 1000 gold. Which actually gives you 1 infamy point (this REALLY annoyed me since my character was good, and I was giving infamy and a 1000 gold bounty for no reason (but tbh this fits in with Roleplaying and the quest, so i didn't care too... much)).

undeaddragon: so it's one of the only times a guard tells lies for his own benefit. The only other time I can think of is during the quest in Cheydinal with the Captain of the guards there (forget his name) where he's placing unfair fines on townspeople for loitering and stuff.

So those are two corrupt guards, out of hundreds. And in both cases, they eventually get proven wrong.

I mean, technically, Niza has a point. The player-character is possibly in the right the entire time those questlines are happening. But I'm still disagreeing with her that there is no justice with these quests. Yes, we can get in trouble with the law before the corrupt guards get caught, but they eventually do get caught.

It was The Corrupt Watchman, i wrote it The Corrupt Watchguard

Sorry for the spoiler, but it is for the purpose to prove my point.

Any guards can be corrupted, and as Renee Gade III point out they are all psychic, so if some one falsely accuse of a crime, every guards psychically know that someone is guilty of a crime?

When i got accused by that guard and got 1000 bounty on me (and got 1 infamy point as undeaddragon mention), there is no way to prove i am innocent, no lawyers and no court. It is either go to jail, or meet Thieve Guild to clear the bounty.

So there are no justice. It is iron fist rule/law for the police state.

It would be cool if the crime system borrowed a couple of things from Daggerfall. Namely, if you resist arrest, the guards will still attack you and use force, but they don't actually kill you, they just capture you once your health gets low (most of the time, if I remember correctly). Afterwards you're sent to court where you had the option to plead innocent or guilty. If you plead innocent then you try to make your case by either lying or attempting to prove your case legitimately. If you fail, the judge throws you in the slammer.

Buffy may knowingly break the law on occasion. But she does so with the full knowledge that if confronted by a Legion soldier simply trying to do his job, she will never resist or endanger him. She has been saved from wilderness encounters by brave and selfless soldiers too many times to willingly endanger them. Now. . . as an illusionist however, she can be rather good at sweet talking those brave but not necessarily brilliant soldiers.

I remember the first time I beat a case. Felt like Perry Mason.

Most of the time in Oblivion I just kill the guards that mess with me unless in a city where commonfolk decide to punch them in the head to "help" me out.

Only if you cause grievous bodily harm while resisting arrest...if you assault with intent to resist arrest is a maximum of two years imprisonment, and can include an unlimited fine, but not always. That's what I found on http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/. I couldn't find anything for merely saying "sod off" and running away though. I only said this though on the basis that, of all the real life UK cop shows I've seen people resist arrest on, I've not heard the arresting statement say anything about GBH unless they intended to or actually caused GBH.

Anyway..

the law in cyrodiil can be seen as an injustice when it comes to commiting crime. Take one of the thieves guild quest lines [SORRY FOR SPOILER..idk how to insert the spoiler code) when you have to frame the informant for a crime to clear one of the members.. they don't even give her a chance or anything. But then on a flip side there wouldn't be much point in trying to plead innocence in court if several citizens and a couple guards watched you attack someone/steal something from them/kill someone in the middle of the street.

It is still rather harsh to be killed for resisting arrest unless you went on a murderous rampage, then it's understandable.

But this usually never happens in the game! There was exactly one time I can think of where it did happen (Dyan my paladin got accused of stealing 800+ gold worth of stuff) but in that case, it's a well-known glitch that happens in vanilla games.

Other than the quest you pointed out, and that glitch, it never happens. There may be something or other in the game not mentioned so far, but the rest of the time, the guards are in the right.

In other words, we are actually commiting the crimes we are being accused of.

It's as if the Corrupt Watchman somehow found a "loophole" in the psychic system, and managed to break the law. But the bottom line is he still has to pay for his crimes at the end, Right? No, the guards themselves don't bust him, it is . In the end, we still come out
That, to me, is justice.

I want you to know I went to UESP to give myself some spoilers, just to make sure I'm getting my info right. thank goodness my memory svcks. By the time I do the quest, chances are I may have forgotten what happens.



Yes there is a way. Do the questline. Finish it. You will be exonerated (I think that's the word) at the end.

It's just like in real-life. Despite the fact that we on Earth have judges, juries, and lawyers, for years and decades and centuries, innocent people can still possibly go to jail all the time! There are cases here in America where DNA evidence is finally being used to clear crimes ([censored], murder, etc.) which in some cases are decades old. This means, an innocent has been in jail for 20+ years in some cases, while the real criminal is free.

Now. Who's got more justice overall? I'd say they have it much better on Nirn. Jail sentences are much shorter. Fines much less. And in some cases, we get to make the rules.

I know how to finish the quest properly, that is by persuading (bribing if disposition is too low) two witnesses...but it cannot be done if all guards attacking you on sight.

In anyway, bribing witnesses also bad, you bribe the witnesses to testify against that corrupted guard. You don't know for sure that guard is corrupted or not...(that is why Qistina meet that guard and then got accused and got 1000 bounty, in which prove that guard is corrupted)

So, after bribing the witnesses, that corrupted guard just going to jail, means there are no legal battle to prove that guard is innocent.

Take a note that you must not talk to that accused guard before anything, or else you will hunted down by guards, so you will never sure the accused guard is really guilty or innocent, you will only hear one side of the story.

It is like someone complain about you, then that someone bribe two witnesses, then they go report about you, after that you go to jail...

Well, legal systems depends on the country you live in or better: continent.
If you are unlucky enough and get caught stealing a bread, you might get your
hand(s) cut off. If you are unlucky and kiss the wrong guy you might get hanged.
If you are unlucky you might get wipped some hundred times for spitting on the ground.
If you are unlucky you might die from a fat police sitting on your chest.

So, they want to kill you for resisting arrest in Skyrim? Go figure

Back in the day, human life didn't have much value. Executing people wasn't really a problem. Considering that the game is based in a historic fantasy setting, they're probably emulating that.

In a game like Oblivion where NPCs are few and far between, this is something of a problem though.

Hey you! Thanks, you've said it perfectly. I was trying to make this point yesterday, but couldn't quite find the words.

Yea, definitely in medieval times, I'm sure there were many occasions when executions took place on-the-spot. At least the guards in Cyrodiil give a choice, and treat us the way we're expected to be treated, if we pay a fine or go to jail.

Then don't resist arrest. Really, is it that bad to pay a measly fine, or go to jail for literally days?


Sigh. I give up, Niza..your'e on your own. I've tried to be your defense lawyer, but I'm not very good at it, I'm afraid.

I always figured that resist arrest essentially meant you're character saying something like: "You'll never take me alive", so they don't try.