Then why bother going to a theme park if they, according to their terms of service, have the legal right to kick you out for any reason?

Why buy land if the US has the legal right to declare immenent domain on your property and take it away?

Just because someone/something has the legal authority to do X doesn't mean they WILL do X. And, while circumstances can change, if they specifically and repeatedly say that they intend to do Y instead of X, that's a good indicator of intent.

By your logic, we shouldn't trust ANYTHING anyone says, because they might go back on it.

My logic is read the contract. The way contract law works is courts will always rule in favor of a written contract and the terms it provides. Verbal contracts are uneforceable and are not permitted due to the possibility of fraud. Unless you can prove that the integrity of the contract is incomplete, then you can bring a parole evidence argument asking the court to permit new evidence that would interpret the meaning of the contract.

Obviously, on its face, the words are clear. Valve has the capacity to take away our games. Whether they do or not is irrelevant, as they have the power to do so. It's unlikely they will as Steam is unlikely to ever be shut down. However, if it were to happen, verbal agreements mean almost nothing compared to an actual written document in the eyes of the court. Yes, I'm in law school. No, Gabe saying he'll do something means absolutely nothing to the law in most cases.

Now if Valve goes bankrupt for some reason, say they want to fight PS4/ One with steam box and screws up. Some will buy the game store and want to keep the customer base who is extremely valuable.

(I wonder if achievements are used by developers, should be interesting to see who functions or quests was most popular)

Various developers would also take actions here.

My only issue with steam is that Valve get too much power. both in the industry and over the users.

Read one case where one user bought an game it did not work or he hated it so he demanded the money back, Valve refused, he blocked the credit card transaction, Valve blocked his account and access to all his steam games.

This would not hold up in an EU court if the user sued but Valve is not an EU company,

So... why are you telling us all this? Except for the nimrods out there, most of us will understand that if Valve goes belly-up and Gabe rides off into the sunset, laughing maniacally with "our" games, we can't exactly sue him; there's nothing to sue. We'd be pre-ME3 Extended Cut pissed, yeah, but that's about it.

It honestly looked like your argument was "Gabe's a liar and you're an idiot in listening to him lie" instead of "Hey, legally speaking, Gabe doesn't have to do anything he promises due to Valve's ToS."

If Steam were to shut down and take our games, it would not be any different than all the floppies and discs that I've lost over the years. And not only that, I would just play whatever current games there were. I really have no problem on letting an old game go.

Some of us keep what we pay for, and get pretty steamed if it gets stolen from us.

It's not stolen. You know exactly what it is that you are getting into.

It's not just Steam going bankrupt or being sold, there're security issues and the bigger Steam becomes the more are going to be.
We've seen security issues this very month and there're have been stolen/hijacked accounts, errors by Steam itself and whatnot.
I have +20 years old games which I've played during the years and still play and no one can prevent me from doing it.

No. You (I assume) are talking about Steam, I am talking about everything, including Steam.; and if they (or anyone) manages to remove access to something I paid to possess, then I consider it theft.

Which would likely have to be hashed out in one of those "I don't care what the EULA says, it's Not Right!" class-action suits. Since, at the basic level, people clicked "Agree" on those EULAs, so they'd have to argue that it's a coerced/unfair/whatever contract and should be invalidated.

Except that you don't own software, you merely paid for a license to use it.

And when you install it you agree to those and other conditions to use it.

Exactly. That's why you know exactly what you are getting into. If someone agrees to the EULA without reading it then they can blame no one but themselves.

I really hate it when people blame others when in fact, the trouble is from them not reading what they agree to. And no one is forcing you to agree, if you don't like the conditions, then don't play the game.

I'll add that I've been using digital platforms for over ten years now and I haven't lost a game to any of them. Could it happen? Of course, but so far digital platforms have had a good record. Much better than lost and damaged disks.

I've heard this same argument since the 80s. I remember people going ballistic when games started needing hard drives and mice. And the DOS gamers going nuts when Windows became the standard platorm for games. Now it's the shift from disks to digital platforms.

The bottom line is that if you are a PC gamer, you have to go with the times or stop playing. The changes can be either hardware or software, but times still change with PC gaming.

Thing is though those company are not listed on that poll. The only company that could qualify as ruining peoples lives is Monsanto, other than that there is Sea World but that doesn't involve human abuse, but I included it because animals are important too.

The rest of those companies I would classify as recreation companies and they make up the majority of the poll. So the poll really shouldn't be called "Worst company in America".

In addition to that this is the internet, and its full of people who play games so I mean.........

Regardless of how you "interpret" my meaning, both statements lead to the same outcome. You own nothing. That which you never owned can be taken away. Of course, publishers certainly don't want Steam tanking as it's convenient and adequate protection for their games. Unless you are EA or Ubisoft, Steam is too important to the PC platform to go by the waist side. Well, unless GOG actually becomes a true rival and not just a platform to buy old school games.

Since Rogue Warrior in 2009 actually.

So yeah, it's likely the same will happen with Fallout 4.

This whole discussion has me confused.

Steam has an offline mode for games you have downloaded.

If you are offline - Steam has no control over who you are or what you do with your games.

Your games won't know if your account is locked, or anything else about you. They can't remove your games.

So are you folks only talking about multiplayer games, where you have to be online?

All the Fallouts and Skyrim run just fine being offline and disconnected from Steam.

No updates, but when is the last time you got an update to Fallout 3?

Hah, I didn't know it was for Rogue Warrior. I was counting the Fallout/TES series mainly in that post, but I guess I learned something new today.

Steam has been so much easier than using disks for me. It is a small thought in the back of my head that one day it could all go down the drain and ill lose access to my games, but all I really play is Bethesda's titles which I have installed constantly. Even if Valve doesn't release a patch to disable the Steam DRM I am sure a solution by former steam users will surface. And hey, they are all stuffed on that magic SSD of mine, its not like all of the game data is going to blow up if Steam is removed.

Except I do neither; I just keep playing my old games...

Do we know if the retail PC release will include the game data on disc? I would have thought "yes, of course it will", but in light of recent events (MGS V), I figured I should ask.

I preordered the retail PC version. I like having it linked to Steam, for downloading updates and buying DLC. But I want the game on disc so I don't have to wait forever to download it from Steam.

Doubtful. I had a physical copy of Skyrim and I believe you were forced to download the game via Steam.

No, you could download it via the disc onto your PC and just to to steam to authenticate your copy. If I'd had to download it completely from Steam, I'd still be waiting for it to load.

If Bethesda follows the Konami model with Metal Gear 5, the disk will just include the Steam installer - no data.

In other words, just an empty disk.

Hopefully, Bethesda is more interested in the PC community than Konami.

I think Konami is focused on hand helds at this point.

I suspect we won't know for sure until much closer to release date.

Yes.

Yes

NO.

Sorry, NO.

Yeah, I installed Skyrim off my disc. But I do vaguely remember some forum threads back in the day (Skyrim? FO3/NV?) where some people who had the discs ended up triggering a full download instead of an install. Don't remember what the actual cause was.

I remember that too. I think they had to force Steam into offline mode in order for it to install from the disc instead of downloading.