Me again! Hai!

I felt it is kinda weird to add this question in my previous post: as it got nothing to do with it. Right, as in my last topic I like to tell my life story! mm..... No, seriously, let me tell you how my day with th GECK went! -- skip to the end paragraph if you only want to read the question

It started with me having constant crashes and wondering why I had 20 errors per cell I loaded. weee, fun. I then got some help, understanding why the error came and where my secret "Yes to All" button was!
Then I scouted the GECK wiki for some houres and did as I did 2 years ago in the CS: Build something totally weird and useless, while ruining half the game in the try! I startedby making Vault 74. 'boy it is long work to make a vault! I did, however, manage to do so. But one thing annoyed me, and that is not that I about destroyed half the game in an attempt to get my vaults exterior door to fit, but that my vault doors had the nice " 101 " on them. mm.... righto, that isn't cool at all. So I went into PhotoShop(PS) and got rid of "101" and added "74" .. oh, and I added some blood sprouts for the giggle of it. I am weird like that! I did as I did in the CS when modding Oblivion. Saved it as "VDoor74" and copied it's existing Nomal map and changed the name to " Vdoor74_n". I then opened the existing "Vdoorsliding01" or something, you know, the .NIF file. Easy fix, I found the upper mesh's texture path ( 2 of them?!) and simply redirected the texture(s) to my "/data/Textures/Vault74/Vault74Doors/Vdoor74" and "/data/Textures/Vault74/Vault74Doors/Vdoor74_n"
No problems there. Saved it, went into the beloved GECK and found the "VDoorSliding01", or something .. again, did an edit, changed the ID and name and changed the model to "Vdoor74". woohoo, it showed up perfect in the preview window! Then I changed every door in my vault to my newly retextured doors.
They looked... Perfect!
I loaded my game, ran into my Vault, ran as a kid ..... What the Fux?! ... the door was black on one side, and .... random? on the other side.


So, where did I go wrong here? Ah, as promised: I will recap what I did and my problem now:

I retextured something.

1) put the texture into /data/Textures/Vault74/Vault74Doors/VDoor74 - both color and normal map
2) Editted an existing VdoorSliding01 .NIF door and put the newly mesh in /data/Meshes/Vault74/Vault74Doors/Vdoor74
3) Went into the GECK, went to doors, found "VdoorSiding01" and editted, changing ID, name and model to my own
4) looked perfect in the Preview window, and in the GECK itself.
5) In game it was BLACK/RED on one side, and ... crap/random on the other side.
6) ........ wutz?


Yeah, what happened?
Where did I go wrong?
What shall I do?


Thanks!

Cheers,

Matth

Well, for starters, you do not need to copy the mesh just to put a new texture on it.

But to your question, there may be a few problems.

Its unusual for it to look okay in the GECK and not in the game. Its usually the other way around.

The 'random' texture usually means the texture could not be found. But this only happens if you use a 'texture set' on the door, not a hard-coded texture path in a new NIF.

The dark/black/red texture usually means the texture could not be found or was created incorrectly.

What texture path do you have in the mesh to your dds texture files? You have to assign the textures to the correct 'slot' or it will not work. And a fully qualified texture path is also not a good idea which might cause problems.

Um... I did not exactly understand what you asked me there =/
All I did was to retexutre, test the texture in Max( to be sure), find where on the existing mesh where the old texture was. Suprisingly the VDoorSliding01 had 2 texture nodes for the same part ..... ?.? .... well, I simply put my texture to both. Basically it look 100% in max, in Nifskope, in the preview window and in GECK, but not in-game >,< can't have it easy 'ya know.

I am doing what I have been doing in the CS for ages ... perhaps I should dive into stuff like this in another way? the GECK doesn't have many answers compared to what the CS wiki had :S

And yes, I got a full texture path. How can I change that? I press that flower icon and simply find my texture. Should I simply copy the part where it says "Data/Textures/Vault74/Vault74Doors/Vdoor74"?

What annoys me the most is that it works 100% EVERYWHERE, without the game ... Atleast when I used the CS I would see the problem either in Max or in the CS. Now thoose are 100% and simply the game got a "random" texture. ....

To go in-depth on the "random" part:

If I look at the door long enough, at one side, I can see it change from black, to blood red, to black, to some metalic texture, repeat. And on the other side the texture looks .. um... like the UVW is totally screwed up? I don't know, atleast I can't even compare the texture of the .DDS and the door in-game .. it looks like it is 2 totally different stuff =/

I could always just redo it and hope for the best ... but I kinda want to see what is the problem. Learning is always fun ^^

Cheers!

Matth

Well for starters, you are doing it the hard way.

The GECK is much more functional for re-textures than the CS ever was. For one, you do NOT need to copy the mesh and apply your texture to the mesh. (except for furniture and creatures)

1. Look at the mesh in Nifskope so you know where to 'copy' the meshes from for your re-tex. Copy them to your own folder.

2. Retexture that to what you like. Make sure to follow exactly where the existing tex was.

3. In the GECK, under the Miscellaneious folder is a folder called 'Texture Set'. You make a new one of these and point to your new textures in this texture set object.

4. In the GECK make a copy of the object. Give it a new name.

5. Where you see the 'model' displayed in the upper right, click the 'edit' button.

6. You will see slots available on the door for applying a 'new texture'. You just double-click the slot and you can attach your new texture set to that slot. You can right-click and select delete to remove a texture set.

Your door now has a new texture on it without copying the mesh.

Okay, I tried that. Well: this is what I did:

I copied the 2 textures for the VDoorSlidin01 ( upper part/top part). Both the Difuse and Normal map.

I retextured the texture by getting rid of the "101" and added 74. I went into the Normal map and changed the alpha to fit my new color map.

I saved them into my folder /data/Textures/Vault74/VAult74 Doors/VdoorSliding74

I went into the GECK and under "Misc" I found the "Texture Set". I put my Color map to "difuse" and normal map to "Normal/*something*"

I found "VdoorSliding01" under "Doors" and editted it by changing the ID to "VdoorSliding74" and saw the " Model [*something*] Edit"

I pressed edit, and got a preview window and the objects/nodes the door is made off.

I got both

VDoorTop01:35
and
VdoorTop01:32

But I changed both that texture with my new texture set.

It looked perfect in the preview window!
It looked perfect in the GECK!
It looked like crap in Fallout 3 -.-

This was without messing in Max or Nifskope ...
Perhaps the /Data/Textures/Vault74/Vault74 Doors/Vdoor74 is a bad place to put my texture? Perhaps change it to /Data/Texture/Vault74/Vdoor74?

Gonna try that one.

Thanks!


Cheers,

Matth

Make sure your 'Game' video settings are not on low or something.

Did you create the Texture with mip-maps?

Try a vanilla texture and see if it looks okay.

My "Game" Video settings it at max. yeah, I love my PC that way!

Mip-Maps? um..?

I basically took the texture into Photoshop, changed the "101" to "74" in both the color map and the normal, as well as the alpha channel. I then saved it as a .DDS using the Nvidia tool. using the Alpha-saving-setting ( got no clue what it is called, and I am not home to check it).
It is odd ... in the preview window it looks perfect, in the GECK it looks perfect... but not in the game. I somewhy think it gotta be my texture link or something. So far I got the exact link

/Data/Textures/Vault74/VDoorSliding74

is there some spelling, or case sensitivity, I gotta be aware of? I basically made the folder "Textures" myself, making it look the same as my Oblivion folder.

Cheers,

Matth

What you are describing is exactly what you get if you don't have archiving invalidated. Are you sure you have that set up?

Have what set up now? =o

By reading all my posts here, I basically tell ... about everythign I've done since I opened my GECK and finished my Vault74 ^^

Archiving Invalidated?

ugh ..

Cheers,

Matth

If you run Fallout using FOSE, it gives you an option to invalidate the archive. Otherwise, I think there are a couple of files on Nexus that will do it for you. Basically, there's an option within either Fallout.ini or Fallout.prefs that has to be set to get the game to pick up new textures.

Actually, that's FOMM (Fallout Mod Manager) that has the invalidation tool. IMHO Downloading and installing Archive Invalidation Invalidated is the way to go because once you have that installed, you'll never have to worry about invalidatin new textures again.

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=944
Use this.

Mip Maps should be set to 4 in your nVidia DDS tool. You should see that option on the basic save screen.
You save your texture as a DXT1 if you don't need alpha, or DXT5 if you do.
And you always save your normal map as DXT5 with the normal map check box checked.

Awesome! Thanks.

But I got a question regarding DXT3 and DXT 5. I tend to use DXT 1 for non-alpha texture, and DXT5 for texture with an alpha. What use is it for DXT3? I somewhat remember a discussion on the Oblivion CS forum about the size of the image ..... any comment on that one?

Ah, and yes: I found the Mip Maps, which is set to 10. What use do Mip Maps got? is the different between 4 and 10 huge? And what exactly is the different? The texture did look all right with my current settings atleast.

Thanks!

Cheers,

Matth

save repeating myself- here is a post I made about DXT compression, clarifying how dxt3's alpha channel works in lay terms, http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?showtopic=188431&st=0

the mipmaps are built in LOD textures, when you save with the mips, it creates several smaller versions of your texture- which are run though a resize filter and depending on what you use, you get varying results. Those smaller versions are swapped in and out at real time depending on how close or far away the object is from the camera. the difference between 4 and 10 might be noticeable. you need a minimum of 4, or something bad might happen. Don't worry using 10 is what is done in vanilla. a few modders have their favorite set up, almost every single texture you download from mods on nexus will have 10. I have yet to fully experiment with how many I think is the best compromise for different resolutions. I am probably thinking 4 might be a good, I also think 6 or 8 might be good for 1024 or larger sized maps as well. :shrug:

mipmap filtering is also very important.
http://code.google.com/p/nvidia-texture-tools/wiki/ResizeFilters
http://code.google.com/p/nvidia-texture-tools/wiki/MipmapGeneration

this is why I think using less mipmaps may help retain a better looking texture, you can get it wrong in the filter and it won't get too messy. obviously using less mips impacts performance. I am thinking on larger textures it might have some noticeable impact, but at a guess it might not be bad, unless everything is using less mips, and you can probably find a compromise at 6 or 8.

This is what you meant, right? I found it under the link you provided me.
So unless I actually plan to make a masterpiece, the different between DXT3 and DXT5 is not worth the trouble?

And Mip Maps: so that is mainly a LoS thing? So again, unless I actually plan to make a masterpiece, or a impressive mod, it really does not matter too much? I guess I can always use 4 mip maps.

Though the "filtering mip maps" tread gave me no usefull information. is it quite important? Considering I am not planning to release any mods, at all ^^ But of course, if it takes little time and is worth the effort: I would always learn more about it.


Thanks!


Cheers,


Matth

I guess.
general crap I do-
diffuse textures dxt1. with alpha channels- I use dxt5. # of mipmaps I haven't experimented enough to give much advise- go with 4-8 i reckon.
photoshop- for really noisey 1024 sized texture- filter- I am using kaiser, blur 0.5 , override default filter width 4. Or using throttlekitty's keepdetails profiles(look on nexus, maybe only in the tesnexus)- the lesscontrast and lessnoise versions, I use my set up as a alternative to his regular one. his is hella noisey for my texture style. don't like the results so much. If I want a softer texture and less noise up to about the 4th mip level- I use kaiser blur 0.8 and filter width 5.
Gimp- use the Lanczos filter. its good. I have just started experimenting with this setup.

Normal maps- as 3dc and dxt5_nm are unsupported I tend to use 888arg or 8888argb(if I need a specular map), but sometimes if the normal map is quite flat or not so important I use DXT1 or 5(depending on if I need alpha channel for specular or not). if using 888 or 8888argb, I reduce the resolution by 1/2 to keep file size the same as using DXT5. default nvidia profile cept with the Mitchell filter. < that I am quite happy with. you really don't want to add any sharpening to your normal maps, especially if you compress them to dxt5.

the filtering does make a difference on the mipmaps- you can clearly see the difference on the wiki page I linked, showing those different filters and what happens when images are reduced in size. apparently Lanczos, Kaiser, and box are the better out there for mipmaps. and mitchell is the better for a softer less noise. :shrug:
tbh I hate the things- I'm not always entirely satisfied with my setups.

summery-
I can't see any reason to use dxt3 instead of dxt5. Try the less mipmaps thing.the filtering is important to the quality of the mipmaps. for a cover all bases- use the default set up with simply changing the filter type to mitchell for normal maps. diffuse maps- Download throttlekittys profiles, test them all out. Or and try kaiser blur 0.8 and override default filter witdth to 5. Or open an uncompressed version of your diffuse textures in the gimp, save out as a dds with the lanczos filter.
I guess that's good advise.
It's not straight forward. and I don't think there is just 1 method for best results on mips. We all have different tastes.
The vanilla ones aren't bad actually.