I'm considering an Oblivion mod that starts after the Main Quest is completed, and concerns the left-overs of the Mythic Dawn. The idea is that an Inquisition-like organisation would arise to do a witch-hunt for any sleeper agents and simpathizers that weren't killed earlier, because the people would want revenge for the destruction wrought by the daedra.

One idea I had was to supplement the few known agents (who could all be dead by the end of the MQ) with returned Ascended Immortals that were in Paradise before you killed Mankar Camoran - specifically the ones running the torture cages, rather than their victims. Eldamil would become the head of the Inquisition - Nirn's Torquemada - trying to redeem himself but overdoing it a bit, due to his judgement being no better than when he joined the Mythic Dawn in the first place. There's also opportunity for false accusations, planted evidence, etc. to make a good story of it all. The quest sequence is likely to end with your having to kill Eldamil to stop his excesses.

Since closing an Oblivion gate spits out the hero and any followers, it seems reasonable that the various portals to Paradise might regurgitate those who entered them when Paradise is destroyed. So a number would re-appear in the Lake Arrius Caverns, and other places around Cyrodiil, at the time you killed Mankar. By the time the Main Quest ends, they'd have scattered back into communities all over the place. Although they enjoyed(?) immortality in Paradise, that would no longer be the case once they returned.

Any lore problems that anyone can see with this scenario?

I think you're right, but wouldn't it only spit out people that are outsiders to the realm? Like when you close an Oblivion gate it doesn't spit out all the daedra left alive as well, so I don't think that Paradise would either since those people seem to be tied to it like the daedra are to Oblivion.

I like the idea. And really, people around here do so much [censored]ing about Oblivion not following the lore anyway, I wouldn't worry that much about it.

But since Paradise would probably have to be some kind of envelope/subdomain of Mehrunes Dagon's realm, I'd think everyone else got spit out back there. Dagon himself may have then sent them back to Nirn so they could continue to follow him there.

I'm not sure how the whole "spit you back out" thing works because wouldn't that captivated kvatch guardsman in the secondary tower in the first Oblivion gate have been released when it closed? Either that was an oversight on Bethesda's part (a mighty big one) or there's something else to this. Keep in mind that he was "quest essential" so his death wasn't possible.

You could say that the repentant ones got out. The paradise regurgitated the ones that weren't in balance with it anymore. A bath of hot lava can make people rethink their decisions.

Something else which should be mentioned is the nexus where they come from, by nexus i mean the spot where they go to after they die, like how the dremora seem to go to a place before going back to the deadlands, let's not forget that everybody who is in paradise and a part of the mythic dawn effectively died, on nirn, however they now share the same status as say a dremora, which is to say immortality, now i'm thinking the nexus where they entered paradise is within paradise, but i am not sure where, remember the altmer that offered to help you overthrow mankar in paradise, well i do recall that he died then came back later to help you, actually now that i think about it when i killed mankar effectively destroying the realm known as paradise the altmer suddenly died, without apparent reason, be this a gameplay issue, if we take this into context with lore i think it would mean that all of mankars followers who went to paradise lost their immortality when paradise was destroyed, from there we can only speculate, the followers could have joined MD's realm and still retain their immortality under MD's service, or they could have effectively been wiped out, i don't see anyway however that they could return to tamriel, there life there has ended, if they do still exist then they would be unanchored spirits roaming the void, they don't have any place to effectively call there homeland as there homeland was destroyed (Paradise). Thus it can be concluded that their spirits are either eradicated, bound to MD like his dremora, or they do still exist, but they roam the void because they are unanchored to a homeland.

The main problem is that such an event hasn't really happened before, Paradise was a realm on it's own, it's like saying what if the Shivering Isles were gone, we really don't have much to work with.

For those who don't want to read all that (which i highly recommend you do) here's a summary:

Mankars followers that went to paradise are now one of the following IMO:

1. They are eradicated meaning they don't exist anymore.
2. They are bound to MD like his dremora.
3. They do still exist, but they roam the void because they are unanchored to a homeland.

Why can't those who died enter the Dreamsleeve?

I don't see how they can, why would they enter the dreamsleeve?

Because that's what people do when they die. :jammasterjay:

:turtle:

Yes, but they have allegedly anchored themselves to paradise, that's how they keep going there when they die, they cannot be considered normal people anymore, because as soon as they became immortal and joined Mankar that spiritual bond with the dreamsleeve was broken, like i said we can't really have a base-ground because there really isn't anything to compare something like this to, this would be like the breakdown of an entire daedric realm IMO like the deadlands, or the Shivering Isles. Paradise is it's own realm, that is why the residents perished when Paradise perished, because they were anchored to it.

...Except that Paradise was created through the power of Mehrunes Dagon. It's probably just a part of his realm, which has plenty of his Deadra running around in it. He kept the Dawnies alive just like he keeps his Daedra alive. I think if he wanted to get them out when it collapsed, he could have.

But what about the altmer who helped, you, he always dies, there is no way to keep him alive, as soon as paradise crumbles he dies, i have yet to find how the MD theory explains this.

Enter the demense of Lord Dagon, says as much in the commentaries.

I always figured that by that he meant he used magic or resources provided by Dagon, his realm would be considered a part of Dagon's realm, anyway we are veering off topic, either way they can't return to nirn, they are either with Dagon, or in the dreamsleeve or eradicated etc. bottom line they can't return to nirn

There's no reason why they couldn't go back, particularly if Dagon wanted them to. Just as he was able to get Daedra in (and they can still be summoned) I think it's plausable that he could send them back. I don't think the fact that they died once there really makes much of a difference, they might have died a thousand times each in Paradise.

But with Paradise destroyed wouldn't the bond be lost?

And if it was part of Mehrunes Dagon's realm would that make them like half-daedric? Besides I thought Martin said something in-game like that Paradise was the book, or that it was inside it.

When Daedra die, they're reincarnated. When the immortal Mythic Dawn members die, they are revived in the same body. Hence why they could be tortured by dipping them in lava.

I don't consider them immortal, so much as subject to inconvenient resurrection by Mankar Cameron for his own purposes. Once that has been removed, they should remain in their current state of alive or dead, barring any intervention by Lord Dagon. He's probably OK with the destruction of Paradise, as destruction is his specialty, and would not bother to interfere.

I'm not convinced that Eldamil always dies permanently at the collapse of Paradise, as we don't really know what the transition from a closing realm looks like except from the first person - blinding light and teleport. It's quite possible the avatar collapses as you leave, but you've never watched your own. MC would have his robed chosen few "on automatic" as far as resurrection goes, so I'm also allowing that Eldamil gets to be the last one before the power fades if needed. Whichever way I bend it, he makes an Inquisitor with the appropriate motivation, so I want him back in Tamriel.

But the reason he was in Paradise in the first place was that he was killed in Tamriel, and was only sustained in Paradise by Mankar's power.

Hmmmm...if your goal is to bring back Eldamil (which i am assuming is the altmer guy), what you could say in your mod, that some people went to paradise in it's initial moments of construction to help with the preparation of things such as the cave, these people who went , went to paradise alive on nirn, as they couldn't be resurrected because paradise wasn't ready yet, these followers were some of MC's most devout followers, when Eldamil struck treason against MC, his relationship with MC ended ending his immortality in paradise, thus he was brought back in the cave where he entered paradise from, the Lake Arrius Caverns, when MC died, since his bond with Paradise ended, he returned to his bond with Nirn. The rest is up to you, as you are the story-teller.

Edit: Hmmm....seems that my little story wouldn't work, apparently it does say that he was slain by three townsfolk, anybody know a way to go around this?

Paradise is not a D&D Raise Dead spell, it's a complete rebirth. Your connection to Mundus is severed forever, which is why the cultists are promised a triumphal return after Dagon has ravaged Tamriel and destroyed its guardian spirits. They probably can't go back. Otherwise Camoran could use his followers as a limitless, undying horde and take over the capital that way.

That's what i was trying to say, somehow you make it sound so much more clear. Thanks for clarifying that.

This would probably also explain my Eldamil dies when you kill Mankar Camoran, if you so choose to let him help you.

Ignore/disregard/retcon. It's the Elder Scrolls way. Him dying is boring and therefore wrong in the context of your story. It was not yet his time. The Jills of Akatosh have mended this error.