Firstly, motivation for this being a separate thread. I did a quick search but didn't notice any recent discussion of what the complete set of 18 skills might be, in light of the recent confirmation that both Athletics and Acrobatics are out (this possibility had been raised in previous discussion, but a lot of people were also thinking that only one of them had been removed). Furthermore, while there are a few open discussions on the removal of Athletics and Acrobatics, those are directed towards whether or not that's a good design decision. This thread is intended as a discussion on a different question: what will the complete set of 18 skills be?

Here are some interesting previous threads: (I might have missed some other interesting older threads on this topic; I just found those that I had personally made a contribution to)

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1164718-i-think-i-figured-out-the-3-skills-removed/

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1167500-the-sixth-combat-skill/

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1170405-skill-speculation/

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So, here is what I think we can now be pretty certain is the "minimal" skill set - the skills we are pretty sure are in the game:

Magic

Alteration
Conjuration
Destruction
Illusion
Restoration
Enchanting

Combat

One-Handed Weapon
Two-Handed Weapon
Armour
Smithing
?
?

Stealth

Alchemy
Archery
Sneak
Speechcraft
?
?

I previously thought that one of these empty slots would be filled by a combined Athletobatics skill. But now we know that's not the case. Here are, as I see it, the remaining contenders (I may be wrong, of course):

Shield/Block
Light/Heavy Armour (ie. split the Armour skill into two skills; this might mean that Light Armour is a Stealth skill, of course).
Mercantile
Security
Hand-to-Hand

Five skills, four empty slots. Which is the most likely not to make it?

I'm pretty confident that Shield is in.

I'm still confident that Hand-to-Hand is in. There are two reasons. Firstly, there might be ways to increase your damage-dealing ability without weapons, without having a separate skill for Hand-to-Hand - your punches increase in damage as your stamina and health increase, perhaps. But this is a very limited form of unarmed combat. No perks, for instance. So here is the first reason for thinking that Hand-to-Hand is still in as a separate skill: unarmed combat has the potential for an interesting perk tree (disarming, dodging, etc.). The second reason is going by the assumption that Bethesda are trying to have six skills for each of the three main archetypes. Combat requires two more skills; one of them is Shield. Hand-to-Hand is the best candidate for the last Combat skill (the only other plausible candidate, I think, is Light Armour. I think Hand-to-Hand is a better fit as a Combat skill than Light Armour).

I'm undecided between the other three. I probably lean towards thinking that the Armour skill will be separated into two skills. That's because I think there could be distinct enough perk trees for those two skills (Heavy Armour has perks for reducing magic damage, for reducing loss of spell effectiveness, etc; Light Armour has perks for reducing encumbrance, for reducing noise when sneaking, etc.) I'm less sure what the perk trees could be for Mercantile and Security. So I see either Mercantile being folded into Speechcraft, or Security being folded into Sneak.

So here is the complete skill set, as I see it:

Magic

Alteration
Conjuration
Destruction
Illusion
Restoration
Enchanting

Combat

One-Handed Weapon
Two-Handed Weapon
Heavy Armour
Smithing
Shield
Hand-to-Hand

Stealth

Alchemy
Archery
Sneak
Speechcraft
Light Armour
Security OR Mercantile (but not both)

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Of course, another possibility is that there is a new skill, something which hasn't been seen before (or not since Daggerfall?)

Thoughts?

Isn't it more likely for there to be a single armor skill rather than a separate skill for each armor type? Seems to me Bethesda is trying to reduce the number of skills to an efficient number. Swords, Axes and Maces(perhaps daggers) are all in one-handed; while Claymores, Broad-axes and Bows are in two-handed. Each of those weapons have their own perk tree so why wouldn't light and heavy armor have their own trees in the armor skill. Bows I think are going to be two handed instead of having their own skill. Shields could also be part of armor but it's possible they'll have their own skill.

It's likely, but then the Stealth archetype would only get one skill directly related to combat, Archery (and that's if it's not moved to the Combat archetype). With the series's increasing emphasis on combat (or what I perceive to be one), such a character would become less viable. Unless, of course, the Sneak perks are as awesome as I expect them to be. Lots of potential for good perks in the whole archetype really.

I don't know, I might have preferred it if they removed Armor skills completely (though I think they make more sense than some do) and kept Acroletics in. Maybe even added an Unarmored skill again, which makes more sense than Armor skills.

I think there will only be 1 armor skill w/ the heavy vs light accounted for as perks.

And why is it necessary that thieves have combat skills? Can't thieves be viable in training non-stealth skills? Considering that skills level w/out worrying about governing attributes or class focuses (combat, stealth, magic).

I think it's pretty much confirmed that there's a separate Marksman/Archery skill.

I think the point about a single Armour skill is a reasonable one. I think the response is: if there's a single Armour skill (with separate perks in that skill for light, medium, heavy armour), then that suggests that there'll be separate Mercantile and Security skills. But what are the perk trees for those skills? I can see what it might be for Security - perks for lock-picking, for disarming traps, perhaps pickpocketing (if that's not in Sneak). But I'm at a loss for coming up with interesting perks for Mercantile - beyond boring variations on the theme of getting you more money when you deal with shopkeepers. Of course, that's not a very strong argument - it might just be my bad imagination. But if someone has some good ideas here, I'd be glad to hear them. In any event, the main point is: I think it's easier to see what the perk trees might be for separate Light Armour and Heavy Armour skills, as opposed to a single Armour skill and a Mercantile skill (presuming that Security appears as a separate skill in both cases).

Hand to hand should not be a skill,....UNLESS they made some super amazing upgrades to it.
If not,then it should just be combined with 1 handed or 2 handed.

There has to be some kind of unarmed skill. Because then what? you can't unequip your self? Since weapons can break or perhaps be disarmed they have to give you a way to fight with no weapons, unless your forced to use spells in your hands. Not having unarmed would be somewhat restricting and considering beth's past games have had it there's no reason to not include it. In their past games I don't think unarmed was ever really mentioned either. My guess skill wise is it would be part of two handed, stealth(unlikely) or it will be like athletics and acrobatics where it will exist but not in the form of a skill. Instead it will have some miscellaneous perks that effect it.

Well, it would make sense to merge Hand-2-Hand with 2-Handed, and Light Armor with Heavy Armor - but that would leave us with 2 skills.

Maybe some really old skills make a return? I mean, we also got Enchant back, who knows ...

This does not mean it has to be a skill itself though. It can easily have perks within the existing combat skills or can be determined by other things. Just because it isn't a skill doesn't mean you won't be able to use it.

Though I do actually think that it will be a skill.

Here are some thoughts on how Hand-to-Hand might get merged with the other weapons skills.

So one suggestion has been that Hand-to-Hand will get merged with Two-Handed Weapon. Initially, I thought this was wrong, because surely you could have a shield in one hand and use your fist with the other hand. You could use one fist, and not always have to use both. So if Hand-to-Hand is going to be merged with other weapons skills, it seems like it would need to be merged with both of them. But now I think there might be some reasonably well-motivated way for Hand-to-Hand to be merged just with Two-Handed Weapon. Here's the idea:

Firstly, your general damage dealing ability will be governed by either One-Handed Weapon or Two-Handed Weapon, depending on whether you are using one fist or both fists. However, Hand-to-Hand perks will only be in the Two-Handed Weapon skill. The thought here might be that the sorts of abilities that show up in Hand-to-Hand perks are the sorts of things which require two free hands. For instance, disarming an enemy might require some coordinated move with both hands.

If h2h is able to be used (which it should be), and if it is not it's own skill, then it will be part of two-handed because it takes up both weapon slots (you can't use it with a shield), and therefore it's perks will also be in the two-handed skill.

I am pretty confident Mercantile will be combined in to Speechcraft, with perks for persuasion/disposition and bartering.

I'm not sure I understand. I agree that in previous ES games, you couldn't simultaneously use a shield and your fists. But is it clear that this constraint will also appear in Skyrim?

To huntsman, I did say at the end of my post it could just have perks instead of being a skill.

To srk, Why would you try to be a fist fighter when your holding a 20 pound shield? If I was using a shield then I would also use a mace to bash my enemies face in. The point of using your fists is being agile. Though Chuck Norris could still probably kick one these dragons asses with just one fist.

Ahh, I see now. Oops. Though you did in a way contradict yourself in that earlier post :S

This. When I hear skill changes this is what I think.

Actually, I just thought of something. They are including unique economies for each major city, new crafting options (including the non skill based ones like cooking), plus trade caravans. This opens up some huge possibilities for Mercantile as its own skill separate from Speechcraft.

What if your weapon is too damaged, or your enemy knocks it out of your hand? Would you drop your shield to use both fists, or would you continue trying to use it in conjunction with your fist?

I'm not really inclined to pre-judge what combat styles players might find fun or useful. And I don't see any good reason to rule out equipping an item/spell in one hand while having the other hand free. It might not be the most optimal combat style, but that doesn't mean that some people won't enjoy using it, or that it won't occasionally be useful.

But anyway, even if Bethesda allows for having only one hand punching, I don't think that rules out Hand-to-Hand being its own skill, nor merging it with Two-Handed Weapon.

Hand to hand fits more stelath imo, also I really think security WILL NOT be a separate skill, try to come up with 10 perks for security only.. Yeah thought so. Merchantile and speechcraft are either the same or different ones, but I really don't think merchantile will be a skill of it's own, try to come up with 10 perks for merchantile. :/

Well whatever area its put in, I want an Extort perk.

"Oy! You give me these arrows at half price or I'm gonna fire a lightning-bolt up up yer [censored]"

Edit: Why was [censored] censored its not like I said ass!

Edit2: WTH, a-r-s-e is censored but ass isn't?! ROTFLOL :lmao:

Edit3: I'm laughing so hard right now :rofl:

Edit4: This is the most # of Emoticons I've ever used in one post. :celebration:

Edit5: Hope I don't get in trouble for all this. Someone laugh with me, please. :icecream:

Well like I said, there are going to be unique economies for each city, several crafting and economic activities (mining, smithing, enchanting, alchemy, farming, woodcutting, cooking), and trade caravans. I don't think it would be too hard to come up with a substantial number of perks, considering the economy system seems to be completely overhauled.

So you are saying merchantile will have this wood-cutting, ore-mining, food-cooking, fishing thing? No thanks mate, a waste of a skill completely imo. Those should simply be things we can do without having mto worry about perks or skills. :/

No, I'm not saying that your ability to do those things should depend on any skill, and I'm pretty sure that they said none of those will be dependent on your skills. I'm just saying mercantile could have perks that affect how much money you can get from doing those activities. Plus I have a feeling that the trade caravan will be more important than just a fast travel method.

I mean what's the point of woodcutting if you don't get paid for it? And if there's no eating requirement, why have a cooking system? All I'm saying is that I'm suspecting these things will be linked to the mercantile system. I'm not trying to suggest anything.

I hope we can rob the trade caravans. I doubt DW is going to be a skill nor is Dodge.