Eh, if it is Neloth that is being the jerk then everything is worth it.

Seriously, his sarcasm and snarky attitude is just classic.

Said the guy who routinely says opinions have to meet some obscure and subjective test of 'accuracy' to be valid and if they don't should be kept to oneself.

Celan, if you are female pardon me for using the word 'guy'. No disrespect, it's just routine usage in situations where gender isn't apparent. I'm guessing this won't be an issue with Bear of a Man, but If it is pardon me ma'am.

@ Blade 92...yeah that one in the middle to make an equal balance is a pretty good game device. Provides a place to run the main quest through without really having to deal with the civil war directly too much.

You're just making up some arbitrary percentage qualifier because your argument makes no sense. The situation is very similar. The Tories did actively and even violently oppose the rebel faction. They lost. The 13 US colonies were distinct from Canada's provinces already. Canada stayed out of the war.

From the wiki, even these descriptions of Tory arguments sound just like those of imperial Nords:

"- They felt that rebellion against the Crown—the legitimate government—was morally wrong.
- They were alienated when the Patriots resorted to violence, such as burning houses and tarring and feathering.
- They wanted to take a middle-of-the road position and were angry when forced by the Patriots to declare their opposition.
- They had a long-standing sentimental attachment to Britain (often with business and family links).
- They were procrastinators who realized that independence was bound to come some day, but wanted to postpone the moment.
- They were cautious and afraid that chaos and mob rule would result.
- They felt that the colonial assemblies and Parliament were the only legal channels of democracy, government and reform.
- They felt that being a part of the British Empire was crucial in terms of commerce and military protection."

I'm quoting the dictionary because you're making up novel definitions. The war in Skyrim is over whether they'll remain a part of the empire or go independent. It doesn't take a dictionary to understand that that's a war of secession, but you're being obtuse.

The tories had similar arguments, but were diffused throughout the colonies, outnumbered, and not represented in colonial governments. There were no colonial governing bodies refusing to have their colony join the rebellion (except Canadian colonies), as opposed to Skyrim where half the Jarls are effectively 'tories'.

And your dictionary definition of secession is the same as I said, so thanks. Ulfric wants Skyrim to secede, but until the war of succession is won he doesn't speak for Skyrim, just for slightly less than half the holds, so he can't formally withdraw Skyrim from anything. He could make his rebellion a war of secession by saying that he represents these four holds and they are formally declaring themselves independent (Independent Kingdom of East Skyrim?), but again that would be a different game.

I said that huh? Quote me then, because I said no such thing about opinions. I do prefer if your opinions are things like "Ulfric seems like he eats elven babies", that you back it up with something to make said opinion credible. Such as "Ulfric is a thalmor agent".

Last time I checked, asking for an opinion with support isn't correcting people, and its something they make you do in college regularly.

You're kidding, right? He's fighting to control all of Skyrim and make them secede. That's secession. It already is one....

Nope, not kidding. As you said he's fighting to get control of Skyrim. If he gets control of Skyrim he probably would declare Skyrim independent (secede). Until he does get control of Skyrim there is no secession.

It's like the mayor of Dallas announcing that Texas is leaving the United States. He can say it, but he doesn't have any authority to back it up. He could then try to get himself declared king of Texas and maybe a lot of Texans would say "if he were king we could secede, so I'm for it" and there would be a rebellion...but until his rebellion is successful secession is just something that might happen eventually.

Lord, it doesn't matter, his goal is to secede, which makes it a war of secession and succession. Period.

Period. That strengthen your arguments in college regularly?

It may well be his ultimate goal, but the fact remains that making himself (or another secessionist) king of Skyrim is a required preliminary step and at the moment he is in fact not fighting the Empire. He is just trying to coerce, cajole, or convince his fellow Nords into naming him king.

One difference it makes is that some who want him king may not even care about secession, while some who oppose him may not be opposed to secession. Which means first things first...gotta resolve this civil war business so somebody can speak for Skyrim.

Another difference it makes is that while Cyrodiil has a stake in a Skyrim civil war and is supporting the side they correctly assume will lead to less of a problem down the line, but their willingness to refuse a secession and the commitment they might make to an anti-secession war could be quite different. Hard to say. I know you think that if Ulfric is king and says 'we secede' there isn't anything the Empire would or could do about it...but that is far from a sure thing.

More than making crap up, yes. Nobody wants him to be king and not secede, because that's his whole platform. A vote for Ulfric is a vote for secession. period (hows that one, eh?)

This is a silly argument. It doesn't matter what the preliminary steps are. The whole war is about making him King so that he can secede. Your arguments as usual are you getting defensive because you know you're wrong.

As far as them doing anything about it goes, I do know they won't do anything, because the rest of their men are stuck guarding the borders in the south, which is why Tullius doesn't get any reinforcements. If they were going to send more men, they'd do that before they lost, not after.

Oh [censored], turn to [censored] CW debate AGAIN.

In your honor I will leave the field to the 'honor of the fictional faction' crowd and stop egging them on. Probably have another one trying to flame me by PM again anyway, so I'll keep busy.

You sound surprised!!