So you r saying that you have an advantage, thats bad, I can see where you are coming from, but you are this Dragonborn, and your saying you have to roleplay a Dragonborn, a dragonborn can be any one and act like anything. And its not a big deal, I have this reasoning in my head but I dont really knwo how to explain it.

In TES you can be whoever you want and do whatever you want, so the forcing of the dragonshouts upon our character is very limiting in that perspective. The usage of shouts have always sounded like a means for us to actually battle the dragons, without them, we are just ordinary citizens. The shouts and the usage of them on anyone will be the same thing as giving a greater power to all characters in Oblivion that would be ridiculously overpowered, like summon dremora lord of self 300 seconds or paralyze 200 seconds. That's how shouts will become when used against normal enemies.

EDIT: nevermind

That's just conjecture though. Maybe normal enemies are already balanced with Dragonshouts in mind? Whose to say Dragonshouts will be anymore overpowering than anything else? I think there is a lot of assuming the worst going on here.

I do agree it is somewhat limiting in ranges of characters you can rp and still do the MQ, though that is really up to the individual. Depending on how often you actually have folks referring to you as "Dragonborn" it might not be such a stretch to rp a non-Dragonborn in the MQ and ignore using your shouts.

mortality is like that in reality. Really? I never knew that!

Just because someone can defeat a dragon, doesn't make a wolf completely non-dangerous to that same person. It doesn’t? So basically the wolf is our kryptonite? If in real life someone had the skills and could kill a dragon I doubt they would lack the skills or self confidence to kill a wolf. Much like a UFC fighter could more than likely kick someone without any trainings ass, sure the other person might get a lucky shot and win but it isn’t as likely that he will get his ass handed to them much like the wolf.

Your explanation of immersion is lacking and poorly worded.
Immersion- complete involvement in something that completely occupies all the time, energy, or concentration available, taken straight from Encarta.
(this is usually done by making the worlds and people have a more “realistic” and believable feel too them which draws the player or viewer into the game) Why do you think the world looks similar to Earth, weapons are similar if not exact to Earth and all players are humanoid, to add to the realism which adds to a more immersive world, immersion and realism go hand in hand.
Save-stating may be non-immersive, but it is still entirely irrelevant to this conversation in this thread. Its a good topic, but its off topic. I also do advocate ways to eliminate this problem. To announce you're intent in bringing this up IS to flame is to admit that you have no actual interest in this conversation, and its not really tolerated very well on these boards to simply be an unwelcome intrusion on topics in this manner.
You are the one that brought up immersion, I was just stating other ways to fix immersion breaking elements and to prove immersion is only important to you if it is something you don’t like and want changed but it isn’t if it adds something else you don’t like. Thanks for proving my point.

Obviously Skyrim is different... that's what the whole topic is about... I was indeed discussing the implications of how it differs. That is a pointless observation.
Then why are you worried about being forced to be special and overpowered, as someone else stated you were forced to become a champion in every other TES game no matter what you were role playing so wait till this game comes out and find out how overpowered dragonshouts will or won’t be, or post in one of the many topics about dragonshouts, your topic is pointless.

You can like being a Dragonborn that shouts at every passing butterfly all you please, I don't care. I for one will not play the game that way, and see it as a flattening aspect rather than a deepening aspect for the fantasy.
You basically just stated “if don’t like it then don’t use it", to yourself and approved of it by stating that that’s what you were going to do. Thank you for that, glad you see it my way.

There is a shouts that summons a dragon to fight on your side, now how could a few Bandits take down the dragon, unless the dragons are ridiculously weak, not at all as epic creatures as they are supposed to be?

Maybe you can only summon it once a day? Once a week? Who knows? I doubt you are going to be running around summoning dragons on every bandit you come across.

There is no point in addressing the rest of what you said without feeding a troll...

but as for the above points that are included in the quote:
Yes, I disagree with a specific way in which they are making this isntallment of the game different from the last. They are making it so that you have a specific path of powers laid out for you to use to be the champion. You have to be the champion on the other games, but you pick from powers not directly or solely associated with the MQ. This is the fundamental difference. Dragonshouts are a paradigm shift away from all other mechanics. Being a champion that fights dragons is not what I have a problem with. Being a champion is not what I have a problem with. its that something that was present in the prior installments that was good is being lost with this new implementation. The ability to completely customize the methods you use to defeat the challenge of the main quest is being minimized in favor of a new type of spoon-fed ability. I prefer to roleplay a character that takes weapons and spells avaialable to all, and transforms them into tools to overcome impossible odds... not be handed a deus ex machina type of spell that will do the work for me, in total or in part.

And I never said I'm just not going to use it. I'm getting the game on PC, and will mod the game to rebalance or remove dragonshouts to whatever degree I deem necessary for my tastes.

Exactly what I have been trying to say. There is a cool-down period how long that is, is unknown but if the devs are smart (which I believe they are) they will figure out a way to make you want to save them for the dragons or other BIG battles just in case you run into a dragon eating a giant around the next corner, even though it would be cool to force push a pack of wolves or the adoring fan of the top of the throat of the world or down the 7000 steps.

Nice to see that when you have no rebuttal you call it not feeding a troll. I call it a win, not that that is why I am doing this, I’m just stating my opinions about your opinions.

Dragonshouts are basically spells that you find just like spells that you buy or learn the only difference is you might not know what you will get from a particular dragon or wall.

Even though I was only referring and objecting to this



I can see it somewhat limiting a person who doesn’t want to use magic at all but apparently Bethesda wants you to feel powerful and use it this time around and Obstructionist said it pretty well.



Well, I got stuff to do right now so I’ll talk to you later. Take it easy and no hard feelings.

That is RPing. You make up the rules for your character and then play it. You have to make up and follow your own rules for RPing as the game won't be able to do it for you.

yes but they MUUUUST complain about it :banghead:

I haven't read anything in this topic, but ... I will finish the game as Dragonborn, few times, but after that, I will just roleplay...maybe a normal hunter/merchant who lives in his shack in Skyrim, and stuff like that ... I will just be free ... and lots of mods too ...

EDIT: SPOILER

from what I understood from the GI website is that your char has to do some quest to some mountain monestary to learn how to use the dragons voice just like Tiber septim did, (same article) if you do not wish to have dragonshouts or do the main quest you shouldn't be worried at all.

EDIT 2: yes I actually completely read all the articals

If you are in this to "win" you are a troll. If you actually want to have an intelligent conversation for the purpose of examining the implications of the topic, you would not be trying to "win" anything. I could give rebuttals for the wolf anology or immersion, but your points on those topics is rambling and incoherent, and, more importantly, off topic. If you weren't a troll, you would know that you cannot "win" opinions.

I don't care if Bethesda "wants" me to feel powerful this time. By making the PC have unique powers vastly different, in a different paradigm entirely from all other mechanics in the game, it is spoon-feeding the way the game "should" be played to the player, and the whole rest of the game is likely to be balanced with this feature. Just ignoring it and choosing not to use it is not a good enough solution, especially to something they are making very central to the way the whole game works. Even if I ignore it, its effect on the game is not going to be completely resolved by any means.

All I'm saying is, I appreciate that in the former games, you use weapons and spells in the same paradigm as other characters in the story, just to better effect, and can therefore be a normal humanoid who rises up from being a prisoner to a champion all on your own merits, by any route you wish to take. To me, the dragon shouts are a "deus ex machina" device, a spoon-fed, alien ability type to the TES series. It diminishes what I like about the game, and clearly not what you do. Fine. But bringing in weird tangents like save-stating and vehemently pointing out that the ability will have a cool down doesn't change the fact that it is a spoon-fed, alien, paradigm changing ability that takes away the way the series has built up the hero in the past.

I always loved the idea of being something 'special' in a role playing game. That's what made baldur's gate one of the best roleplaying games ever. I thought it was really annoying you weren't almighty and stuff in oblivion. In spirit you were, but in title it just wasn't there until the shivering isles expansion.

But this underscores the problem. Having these dragon shouts makes you special. It forces you to either be special in a very significant way, or not complete the main quest. That's all well and good if you want to be special, but if you want to do serious roleplaying, it is limiting to force special abilities on you. If you can't pick your own path to greatness, it isn't really roleplaying anymore. Be it sneak attacking and running away, using persuasion to rally allies to fight alongside you, mastering the sword and shield, or casting huge fireballs at anything that moves... you pick your battle stance and hone that ability and tailor it to what you think your character is like. If you have dragon shouts, then that is what you use in the most dire circumstance, regardless of anything else you have mastered. So, it is then not a choice, and therefore not roleplaying... you MUST have a choice in the way you do battle for the role playing to be truly intact.

And to say that you have a choice to just not use something that is blatantly staring you in the face and force-fed to you as being what your character is all about... the entire game being based on in and progress markers being based on it in your combat victories and exploration... is a joke. Yes you can just not push that button to do the shout, but that is such a poor excuse for a solution.

I already told you GI website says Bethesda says you have to be at some point of the main quest before you can actually be able to use Dragonshouts.

if you don't want yr dragonshouts, don't play to that part.

I bet after 11/11/11 he is gonna be like Dragonshouts are awesome I use them all the time they are the best way of combat in the game!

I know your saying that you feel your being forced to use the shouts but your really not. All you getting is another choice about how to play the game, something its clear from your post you want. You could not collect the shouts, RP that you are rebelling against using them, or that you a morally opposed to them. I had Oblivion and Morrowind charters who used virtually no magic even though it was there 'blatantly staring me in the face' just ignore, avoid or resist them if you really don't want to use them.

Obviously at the beggining you are going to be weak but as you level up adn get to the higher levels you will discover these stronger shouts, jsut lieka t level 29, in OB, I killed everyone who could be killed. At a certain point you are going to be tank adn win, but before that the hard things are gonna be hard adn teh easy things are gonna be easy. Eventually everything will be easy, even on very hard.

I'm perfectly fine with it. It makes me feel special, because I am. But it also gives me access to a certain type of magic, without being a magic character. But unlike normal magic, shouts have a cooldown time so it's not a freebie. Maybe it's cursed (like staying in prison), so you want to save it for those really special moments where you really *have* to use it? Maybe the first wave of attacking wolves are killed easily, then the game just spawns another pack?

I agree it can sound a bit powerful, but I'm sure the devs have that kind of balance sorted out.

Again, ignoring it doesn't make it go away. It is so central to the class design, and yes I will continue to use that word "class", of the PC that the game will be balanced with it in mind. Lots of the rewards for discovering new places and defeating the greatest foes will involve this system. Its one thing not to use magic because you are role-playing a brute force warrior in prior installments because you can go through the entire game as the hero not only not needing to use spells, but without learning any spells or having any plot background pushed in your face telling you that your character is DESTINED to learn spells... Its another thing to intentionally ignore the reward you are "supposed" to get from finding the wall or defeating the dragon. It also seems like they are balancing the game to expect you to be needing these powers to kill the hardest of foes, certainly the dragons. That's the whole point of the powers. Not doing the main quest in order to not roleplay a Dragonborn is not a solution, and I find that unacceptable.

You can be the HoK or Nerevarine without using any magic, or by using only magic. You can be the Nerevarine by exclusively using throwing darts, or casting charm, fear, and paralysis on everything and never killing a living thing. You never have to intentionally ignore a quest reward in order to roleplay unless you are telling yourself your character is some kind of minimalist. You don't have to consider, encounter, use, or avoid using any particular form of combat one way or another and can be the champion. You have a special destiny in what you are to accomplish, but no special destiny in which tools you are "expected" to use to do this.

With the dragon powers, constantly having to ignore them is a constant reminder that you are playing a game that is designed to be played a different way than you want to roleplay. This is the fundamental problem with making powers specific to the player. It doesn't matter if its well implemented, or if you don't "have" to use it... these special powers are tied to the PC, forcing the PC to be a particular class. So you are then left with 2 options for the MQ... A Dragonborn that uses shouts, or a Dragonborn that doesn't use his shouts... either way, you still have to deal with this forced, alien mechanic, that is not integrated into the way the rest of the fantasy world engages in combat.

The fundamental problem I see with this is that TES is, as far as I am concerned, a ROLE PLAYING GAME. This kind of super-power backstory where you are told by the game's story elements and NPCs what type of abilities you should obtain to accomplish your goals instead of leaving you the hell alone to decide what weapons you want to study limits your ability to fully role play, moving it one step farther away from the pure role playing experience.

Dragon shouts are simply a new game play mechanic and should be looked at as such. Did you never find it weird you were the only one in the world who could jump in oblivion? The only one who was smart enough to backpedal after swinging? The only one who sold things to merchants?

I'm pretty sure that you gain dragonborn powers as you progress into the MQ. Hence, if you do not want the powers, then just don't do the MQ.

I'm pretty sure nobody will read what I have to say, because even I gave up reading every comment past pg 3, but whatever

Besides having to go to the greybeards to learn using the shouts (Which I'm 95% sure isn't required to explore the rest of the world) not all shouts are actually giant, in your face, SHOUTS
Some, like the "shout" that turns you invisible, is actually a whisper (don't ask me where I heard this, I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who knows. I think it was from game informer) so chances are even if you NEED to use shouts to complete the story, they are as varied as the person you play, so you won't feel "out of character"