I get what you are saying, but if you do the amn quest then your character is embracing the fact that eh is dragonborn, ignore it and youll never learn shouts, and you wont have to use them.

Your right it limits RPGing, but the thing is that is who you are in the game.

From my understanding, the guy you played in morrowind just fit the bill for the Neverine and became immortal and immune to disease for his/her troubles. CoC was some random prisoner who dealt with everything you can do in Oblivion then became Sheogorath and disappeared.

I'd put money on Skyrim's story ending in immortality in some form, even if it's after what we can see in game.

You know, the thing is, they made dragon shouts to compensate for the almighty dragons and all, but...

It's just another way of fighting. like being a mage, or a thief, or a warrior. it doesn't actually make you "dragonborn class". why? because NOWHERE is it said that dragon fights will require them.

Also, I think you need to learn a bit about ROLE-PLAYING. saying "it's there, but I don't want it, so I can't RP" just shows that you don't know [censored] about RP. seriously, did every RP character you made in the past use all weapons and all spells, as well as sneaking everywhere? NO! was it because you couldn't? of course no. It was because YOU LIMITED YOURSELF.

THE EXACT SAME THING GOES FOR DRAGONSHOUTS!

You also have to keep in mind, that while you want to RP, everyone adapts to their environment. If someone who seeks power learns about dragon shouts, you think he'll ignore them? NO! Of course, you make your character, and make your choices with his/her personnality in mind, but you can't write all the story in advance. no one knows their future

I'd also think that since you find some of them in dungeons, you probably won't get them all in the MQ... you'll probably have to search for them if you want them

(who knows? maybe that "summon dragon" thing has the dragon make 1 attack and then fly away!)

EDIT: and no, I'm not trying to get you to accept dragonshouts.
I'm just teling facts, and that if you think the game will svck, well don't buy it.
...seriosuly... are people ever gonna run out of things to complain about...?

Spoiler'd for possible spoiler.

I'd agree with this. No offense against you OP, but why should they take it out for everything besides Dragons? Why not allow people to make the decision when/where they would like to use it.

Also, make sure you don't forget one tiny little detail.

While most people on this forum do RP, most people that buy the game actually play it like they would play any other regular RPG. Most of those who buy the game, just want a fun, complete game. And I completely understand them

People keep saying you can just ignore the MQ to not deal with being a Dragonborn... that is not an acceptable solution. You should be able to fully RP without having to ignore any content in the game (morality aside, yes you can't do evil things if your character is good etc. that's not what I mean). I admit that there are subtle things you can't avoid in Morrowind for example. Yes, NPCs will have their opinion of you changed, yes you will become immortal and immune to diseases... but the way that these things actually impact the day to day, hour to hour play of your character in combat and in quests unrelated to the MQ was actually quite minor and not a constant reminder of the game telling you HOW you should best overcome and what skills are the "most powerful" in the game.

This is the difference. I fully understand that you RP by making choices, and you have to make those choices from within the game world provided. Heck, in OB in order to complete the Shivering Isles, you have to be willing to RP your character as someone that would aim to become a god and seriously risk casting aside their mortal life and sanity forever. But that is more directly related to the game world provided, the plot and the destiny that you are to fulfill. The difference is that it is NOT about HOW you fulfill that destiny. You don't get "Nerevarine powers" aside from Disease resistance. You don't have the priests and scriptures saying that the Nerevarine is destined to use archery to defeat his foes, or that he is destined to be a conjurer, or that he is destined to utilize any particular type of fighting style, weapon, or spell. The story, not just your own will, leaves it entirely up to you how you "should" approach your challenges, in the MQ as well.

With Dragonshouts, yes, you can choose not to use them. But you can't ignore them. Many ruins in the world, NPC dialogue, books, the Throat of the World, the dragons themselves, and the dragons when you defeat them are all going to be in your face the whole game about the fact that this special power is your destiny as much as what you are to do with it in defeating the dragons. This would be just like if every time you defeated a prominent Ash Vampire in MW, you would be prompted that you had just mastered a new roundhouse kick, because the Nerevarine is "meant" to be a martial arts master. Or if every time you close an OB gate, you learn a new conjuration spell where you summon a giant version of a Daedra, because the Chapmion of Cyrodiil is "supposed" to be a master conjurer. By making the hero of this story by the plot of the story be destined not just to accomplish a particular task, but be given specific pre-determined tools in order to do this, it severely limits RP.

I honestly don't see how the current situation is going to be all that different. If using Dragonshouts is that big of a deal breaker for you either don't use them or mod them out. No one is telling you that you "have" to be an archer or conjurer or Dragonshouter. This seems like a rather small thing to knitpick on and shouldn't be much if any of an obstacle to RP away. Being destined to be the Dragonborn really isn't any different than being destined to be the Nerevarine or destined to become the mad god. In fact my CoC never wanted to become the mad god, and it wasn't too much of an issue to rationalize that and RP it in a way that my CoC didn't. I just don't see what all the fuss is here.

Something that has just occured to me in re-reading this thread this morning is that what my argument really can be summed up is that I'm not actually complaining about getting powers from being a Dragonborn, but getting specific powers. I know Bethesda is putting in powers in the shout system that would not be appropriate for all other types of "classes" to know, such as slowing time, or becoming invisible, so I know out-of-the-box it won't be this way... but I'm actually thinking it would be almost impossible to entirely get rid of the shouts, with how much of the MQ and the wall locations will be involved with them. It would eliminate too much of the cohesion. Instead, I will work to make a mod that tailors what your shouts do based on your other skills and attributes. This way, you do gain power by being a Dragonborn, but you gain power in accordance with what kind of lesser abilities you are already good at.

This way, you can still be destined to be the Dragonborn, but not have to be a character that is expected to be able to slow time or become invisible. If your character outside of his Dragonborn powers is a strong melee fighter, maybe I'll make it so you only get shouts that have to do with fortifying strength, endurance, speed etc. If you are a good enough conjurer, then you may obtain a shout that lets you summon a dragon (but I'll have to see if that needs rebalancing or not still). Etc. This way, you still get the shouts, and can still be the "Dragonborn" but still be a unique "class" at the same time. That will be the solution I attempt to create for this. No one else on earth will be forced to download it and install it.

I really don't see the point in complaining about this. I mean, honestly, who hasn't played a campaign where you had to retrieve the mcguffin of power and weild the ancient mcguffin abilities of whathaveyou to defeat the big bad? It's a classic plot device and doesn't hinder ones rping in any way, shape, or form. Rping doesn't mean the magickal mcguffin powers have to suit your character build.

now we are getting to the point of:

I do not like the Dragonshout feature, it's unaccepteble that it's there.

then don't buy the freakin' game.

But the "ancient mcguffin" in MW were the tools used only to defeat the MQ in a plot-centric way. The "ancient mcguffin" in OB was Martin. If the "ancient mcguffin" becomes a thing you can use in just any situation, rather than specific epic situations, then it colors what your character is like on a daily basis, not what his epic destiny is. That's why I aim to mod this "ancient mcguffin" that Bethesda is making a more daily affair for the character to indeed give the PC more power, but more power in accordance with other choices you the player have made about how you RP your character. If you have too low an intelligence, you won't be able to use the power to make yourself invisible, if you don't have the strength to shout hard enough to stun an enemy... you won't be able to use that one. I'm going to make it so that to use any particular "ancient mcguffin" you have to meet prerequisites to use the various ones available, because in this case, there are multiple, instead of one.

If you can just use any and all of them you find, then you have no specialization, and less to set you apart from anyone else's character, thereby diminishing RP. I don't want RP diminished by being handed powers that are out of character, and I don't want to have to not do the MQ in order to avoid this. Being out of character in the plot is one thing, but being out of character in your minute to minute decisions and combat flattens things out. By making other requirements besides just "being a Dragonborn" to learn specific shouts, this diversifies the way you will play and makes the choices you have made about your characters strengths and weaknesses matter... which is central to RPing.

I have to agree here, I don't see getting specific powers due to being Dragonborn hindering role-playing any more than the roles past games forced on you did. I mean, I doubt that you're character will know he is a Dragonborn from the start. Most likely, you only find out about you're destiny at some point duing the main quest, and presumably you also don't get you're first dragon shout until then, how is this any different from getting thrown into the world unaware of you're destiny and later learning, if you choose to pursue the main quest, which you can choose to ignore, that you're supposed to be the prophecized reincarnation of an ancient hero, as far as role-playing is concerned. In both cases, as long as you don't know of you're destiny from the start, you can simply ignore the main quest if you want to go through the game without any mention of you're character being Dragonborn. And I'd say it's actually refreshing to see a game in which the prophecized hero actually has abilities most people don't have. I mean, in many stories, the "chosen one" doesn't really seem to be anything special, and there comes a point when I have to ask "Why must it be this guy? Why not that other, more skilled guy?" You avoid this when you give you're chosen one powers most people don't have, and can explain why this person has to be the chosen one and not someone else who really seems more suited to the task, because even if that other person is more competent than you're hero at the start, he might not have whatever sets you're hero apart from other people and allows him to do what someone else couldn't.

Now, I could see it being a problem if the main quest is forced on you, not because you're the Dragonborn, but because you can't choose to ignore what that entails. But like in past games, I'm sure you can ignore the main quest, and hopefully, Bethesda will have learned from the criticisms of the false sense of urgency in Oblivion's main quest, and will design a main quest that doesn't make you feel like you need to get on with it as soon as you're given your first task.

And it wouldn't make any sense for dragon shouts to only work on dragons, considering that some of them are abilities that don't directly effect you're target, like the short range teleport thing, why would you only be able to do that when a dragon is present? And even the ones that do effect you're enemies sound like things that wouldn't logically only work on dragons, like the force push one, it pushes things back, why should that only affect dragons? Now, if you have a shout which directly damages dragons, you might be able to justify that only affecting dragons if you say it's only meant to be used against dragons, but that wouldn't make sense for all shouts.



Of course, you COULD use the tools in Morrowind on a regular basis, they had some nice enchantments on them and made a good reward for completing the main quest, and I like that. We've seen so many examples of McGuffins that are good for one singular purpose and otherwise worthless, it's refreshing to see on that can also be used for more mundane situations as well.

Let me put it another way... this game is like Dungeons and Dragons, Diablo, Baldur's Gate, etc... these games and others all have various levels of being linear or sandbox, various amounts of actual RP in them, but your character's strengths and weaknesses are a representation of your choices in combination with the mechanics associated with your abilities. Imagine if in Diablo, no matter what class you chose, as you progress through the game, you get the ability to slow time. So, now you are a Barbarian, but for some reason you can now slow time. Or imagine you are a Sorceress, and as you progress through the game, you now get an ability to shout hard enough to knock enemies back, but its not a "spell" its an innate ability.

Now, progress farther, and you get all sorts of them. So now, as a Barbarian, you are a master of physical combat, but you also have 6 or 7 shouts... and can now turn invisible, freeze your enemies, slow time, charm an enemy into being on your side, and heal yourself with a ball of light.... you are NO LONGER A BARBARIAN THEN. You are now a Dragonborn. If you get these types of abilities, you can't really pick your "class" and picking your class is central to RP. Your choice to pick a melee combat individual is being flattened out in favor of adding all of these abilities that are completely out of character for everything you have decided to choose about your strengths and weaknesses.

But if these powers are simply magnifications of the types of abilities that make sense for your character, this problem is diminished greatly. Its not that the power is called "dragon shout" that bothers me. It is the type of effect it has. I don't want stupid, towering, axe-wielding warrior with an intelligence of 30 and a Restoration skill of 25 to be able to cast a massive heal spell... but should be able to increase his speed and the force of his weapon thrusts. Similarly, my Breton conjurer with a strength of 31 and an endurance of 45 shouldn't be able to shout so hard that it knocks an enemy to the ground stunned... but should be able to conjure a dragon.

I think that the TES leveling system will provide ample motivation to use regular abilities. Also we know nothing about possible cooldowns or after-effects of using Dragonborn abilities. Or the possibility of friendly fire if used in enclosed spaces. I think it's very premature to assume we'll be tempted to use extremely powerful abilities to swat flies.

Another possibility to consider is that shouts will allow them to make everyday encounters more challenging, particularly early in the game, while still allowing the PC to defeat enemies of legend. Also to consider is that while some shouts clearly work on non-dragons, we don't know that all shouts do.

Ok, that's exactly why dragon shouts are NOT spells. all they require you to do is to [censored] SHOUT!!! Does that take an intelligence of 1000? NO! a baby can do it!

Also, from the RP side, NO ONE chooses how they are born, and most people don't know exactly where their origin lies.

As for RPing, who knows? maybe your CHARACTER could deny the use of powers in favor for "his way" Hell, that's what I do myself when I'm about to fight. I was born with a "tank" body size (not fat, just big and muscular), yet in a fights I prefer to use my head.

Life is about CHOICES you know...

Oh also, IN CASE YOU DIDN'T LEARN, THEY GOT RID OF CLASSES! YOUR CHARACTER JUST PLAYS HOWEVER THE [censored] YOU WANT HIM TO! CLASS OR NOT!

But seriously man, don't buy the game. don't. So far it seems like every argument we gave you wasn't enough, so yeah, keep playing Oblivion until TES 6. more simple for both you and us

Also, what if you want to be a dike and use shouts on villagers to mess with their day? Kinda like in Okami. You were the Goddess of Light, Mother of All Things, but you could still cause blizzards and thunderstorms in populated areas, pretty much ruining everyone's everything.

I wanna be able to be a dike.

I don't see Dragon shouts as being limiting to roleplaying. I am almost sure that you can play the non-main quest part of the game without learning Dragon shouts, and if you want to play the MQ you have to embrace being Dragon born. In Morrowind, playing the main quests means opposing the Temple and being immune to diseases. In Oblivion, playing the main quests means changing the relation between Oblivion and Mundus forever, or at the very least for quite some time.

Say I want to roleplay a farmer in Morrowind. If I don't play the main quest, I can do that very well. If I play the main quest, I become part of the Emperor's elite spies. Dagoth Ur himself sees me as someone special. What if I want to roleplay as a Temple devotee then? Playing the main quest would screw up the entire roleplaying. In Oblivion, if I want to roleplay as anyone, I can't do so without being in possession of the Empire's greatest artifact. I see Skyrim is being more flexible for roleplaying than Oblivion, if I can play the game without learning Dragon shouts.

Also, I like to roleplay by purposely "forgetting" things that people say to me. For example, I may be told to see Caius Cosades in Morrowind, but if I don't want to, then I just take it as though that never happened and get on with the game.

I don't have to agree with you in order to buy the game. And this is why Bethesda is a great company, because they allow full modifications of the game. I will certainly buy the game, and then mod it.

I don't have a problem with getting powers called shouts. I do have a problem with the fact that the effect of the power and which powers you get is not based on what you character is capable of. "Class" isn't just some arbitrary title given to you, its based on what your strengths and weaknesses are. If you have poor physical strength but strong magic, you are in the general category of a "mage". If you have strong physical strength and good ability with a weapon, you are in the general category of a warrior. It doesn't matter what label you put on it... the fact remains that outside of these shouts, your capabilities will be dependent on your skills and attributes. If you have low intelligence and magicka, and your conjuration skill is 25... you are not a conjurer. Period. It doesn't matter if they removed the fact that there is no "conjurer label"... you can't conjure things because of the choices you made when customizing and playing your character. You are limited against conjuring. But with your shouts, you can now call a dragon to your side, which while it isn't actually "conjuring" and doesn't actually require intelligence and conjuration skill, it holds the same place in its effect. It functions the same way as conjuring in its impact on your style of combat when you use it. A shout that makes you invisible may not cost magic or require you to know a school of magic to do it... but it functions the same way as an ability like that.

By giving these out of character powers to a character that otherwise based on the decisions made and the consequential types of abilities thereby made available to that character, the consequence of having made those decisions about what attributes and skills this particular character have are lessened. You can be a complete magicka moron, but now you can turn invisible and heal yourself, and slow time. You can be a total wimp, but now you can stun your enemies... it doesn't matter if its on a cooldown... it doesn't matter if it makes sense from a "logical" perspective because it "isn't magic its a shout"... it is still something that is being given to you that circumvents all the checks and balances of the limitations of the rest of your choices and their consequences related to your attributes and skills.

Calling people a troll seems more troll-like than disagreeing with them or ignoring them in my opinion. I am getting tired of arguing with you as you have already made up your mind and are starting to bash for lack of argument but I would like other peoples opinion of my points to see if they also believe they are rambling and incoherent as I have passed every English course I have ever taken throughout college with a B or an A. I believe it may be a reading comprehension problem on your part, or lack of a good rebuttal so you turn to bashing someone instead. I did leave out the would and a but in my statement " I call it a win, not that that is why I am doing this, I’m just stating my opinions about your opinions." to read I would call it a win, not that that is why I am doing this, but I’m just stating my opinions about your opinions, but I am human and I do make mistakes. Any way just curious if anyone else thinks this way, if so I will do my best to fix the problem in future posts.

To stay "ON TOPIC"

It looks like most people around here disagree with your opinion about shouts not being able to be used on all creatures and have enough imagination to role-play them out or around them if they choose to. Since you say you know how to mod and will do it, go ahead, mod to your heart’s content you deserve to buy the game just like everyone else and mod it however you see fit.

Good day.

Only if that baby is dragonborn and trained by the Greybeards.

Yeah, and Trueflame should have only hurt Almalexia.

If you are ROLEPLAYING then do what your character you do, if you don't see your character using dragon shouts on normal enemies then dont use them, a big part of roleplaying is limiting yourself to what you would see your character do.
but yeah, dragon shouts are usable in combat, i for one am greatful, dont expect them to remove features so that roleplayers can have a blank slate to work with, you're not a nobody in this game, you are dragonborn, either mod it out and dont play the story, or just dont use it.

I understand what you are saying but i am sure that the shouts will be very limited in their use, they may not just recharge over time, there may be a different method, whatever was done to balance it out i don't have any worries, the dragon shouts sound just like the major powers in oblivion and those didnt ruin anything for me, sure i could heal myself, but only once every 24 hours, and yeah i could summon a flesh atronach with the SI but it didn't make my conjuring skill any less useful because because they were very limited in there use and i still only saved them for if i ran out of magicka. having one does not lessen the other, my healing abilities in oblivion were not always enough to keep me alive in combat, but when combined with the maras milk ablility ( i think that's what it was called) i was able to survive more close situations. I'm sure some of them will work good with normal spells, i for one would like to paralyze someone and then use the dragon shout knockback to throw them off a cliff. whatever bethesda does they won't do it blindy, i have 100% confidence it will be balanced, but i guess we will just have to wait and see.

You become Nerevarine by advancing through main quest. Maybe it is self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe you're kidding yourself. Maybe you truly believe you're Nerevarine. Maybe you're the Nerevarine all along. This is never clear. For Skyrim, I think the Dovahkiin business is all marketing. It will be the same. We don't know the details of the story. The narrative is always in the game. The mentor will guide us, maybe he is totally mistaken. Maybe we are the first to use shouts outside of Dragonborns. These things are common in self-fulfilling prophecies.

This hero slays dragons and if you choose to play him expect the reward of doing this to be big. It is all natural. If you concern about being the Dragonborn will effect your character, this, right here, means more DEPTH! You will have to endure this on your own.

How lucky you are as a role-player!!!