In previous installments, your character was someone special in history as far as the game was concerned, regardless of how you want to roleplay, but being that character in and of itself didn't change you all that much. In Morrowind you do get some perks for being who you are, but they are rather minor in the end (immunity to diseases being the biggest thing you get if I remember correctly...). In Oblivion... nada. You don't get any special powers simply for being who you are. You get quest rewards, and learn spells and such, but even stuff you get for beating the main quest in SI doesn't count really, as those are just basically new spells that operate the same way as any other spell, and you are only rewarded this stuff at end game anyway. You don't get anything that is extremely unique to your character that is in a wholly different paradigm from what other powerful characters in the world have. You are treated differently, and people talk to you differently based on what you have accomplished in the main questline in previous games, but that only makes perfect sense.

In Skyrim though, no matter what other class you are, no matter what else you do... you are also a "Dragonborn" class at the same time. The whole shout and "absorb dragon powers" system has me slightly concerned. If you even touch the main quests, or maybe the dragons are there even if you choose to ignore the main quest, I don't know... but if you even encounter and defeat any dragons, it appears you will be using and getting shouts and special powers totally different from those of the types of spells and abilities that any other character or class in the game has access to. I really hope that these powers only work on dragons, and don't do anything to affect your combat capabilities in fighting anything other than dragons one bit. If they do, that'll be the first thing I will want to mod out of the game if possible.

"I really hope that these powers only work on dragons, and don't do anything to affect your combat capabilities in fighting anything other than dragons one bit. If they do, that'll be the first thing I will want to mod out of the game if possible."

Even if the shouts do affect overall combat... couldn't you just, not use them?

Possibly, but I shouldn't have to artificially restrain myself... unfortunately I have a hard time ignoring something that is an option. I have enough self-control to not use it, but just the fact that it is there is hard to ignore that it is there, and just being there and ignoring it is negatively impacting on immersion. Also, some of the things you get may be passive bonuses you don't actively use.

From how I've understood it, our character is not the only one who can use shouts, however it ís very rare to meet the others, it's only a handful of NPCs. I too would only want the shoutsto be used against the dragons, it just seems a bit overdoing it do summon another dragon to kill a mudcrab, the dragon wouldn't simply answer your call if that was the situations. The magical words of powers should effect the dragons only, using their very nature against them. Not necessarily being able to use it the same way as dragons, against others, but only agianst themselves.

Skyrim has no classes to begin with.
And shouts affect everyone, not just dragons. Wouldn't make sense if you were the only Shout user in history who can't use it on puny mortals.

Why would they not work on anyone else? Dragons use them not only on you, but on everyone, why should it be any different for you? Also, why exactly does this concern you, I'd like to see you elaborate a bit on that. Are you worried you'll be overpowered? If so, don't use the shouts on anyone but dragons, problem solved. Why exactly would this be an issue?

So...you don't want Dragonshouts? I thought at first you were unhappy that the player is someone "special" in previous games but doesn't get anything all that unique for it, but then you seemed upset that Dragonshouts could be used against non-dragons? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

My guess is, you do not learn any of the dragon shouts until a little into the MQ (probably after your first encounter with a dragon, where you lose). I doubt you spawn and suddenly you both KNOW a dragonshout and KNOW you're a dragonborn. My guess is, if you do not touch the MQ you will not have to use or learn this game mechanic, but that's only a guess.

There are other ways to roleplay it. For instance as a mage you could spend your time gaining power and say by level 20 you come across the last of the dragonborn, an old man, and either he transfers his heritage to you if you're a good guy or you steal his powers it with some dark ritual if you're evil. Thus you are dragonborn but were not brought into the world that way.

You have it backwards, I am happy that you don't get anything special for the other games. I don't think you should have special powers aside from things directly related to your destiny. Hence, why I think your dragon-centered powers should only be concerned with dragons. I'm not saying its for everyone, but one of the things I like in these games personally is just being a normal person that overcomes impossible odds, and the ability to be everything from a humble, sickly, short wood-elf female who does everything with sneaking and summons, to a towering Nord warrior who smashes faces in with a hammer and never speaks to anyone...

When I say class, it doesn't mean the game arbitrarily gives you a class name and special stats for it like in OB and older installments... the class is the way you play. If you have shouts that work on everything, then you are a "Dragonborn class" at all times, no matter how else you want to look at it. It takes away from developing your character in other ways. I just praise Bethesda for making modding so easy so people who like roleplaying can tailor the game to their taste.

I don't think you have much to worry about then. While I'm pretty sure Dragon Shouts will affect any type of enemy, it seems like all of them do things, so they aren't passive abilities. That means you can choose when to use them or when not to use them.

I like roleplaying as a lot of different characters that I consider to co-exist with my main character--the character that, in my head, is credited to the main quest. So I have my character that completed the main quest, as well as various other characters that are taking care of other objectives. One character ends the Oblivion Crisis while a separate character is fighting Mannimarco in the Mages Guild. I do this so I don't feel like there's one legendary super-man character that does EVERYTHING, and so things are more balanced and it gives me a chance to try out a lot of different characters.

However, my other characters for Skyrim will not be Dragonborn, though technically, gameplay-wise, they will be. My solution to that will just be not doing anything that a Dragonborn would do. Avoid fighting dragons, avoid the main quest, etc.

I don't think you need to mod anything. You have self-control and as I said, I don't think you'll ever be FORCED to use a Dragon Shout unless it's vital to the storyline.

I understand, and there could be passive bonuses. I just had to get the obvious option out there. Does make me wonder, though, because there are apparently shouts that slow time and what-not. But here's something else that might be an indication on how they're doing it... this is from the GI Skyrim feature;

"Tiber Septim would use the dragon shouts to lead his troops into battle and unite Tamriel under one empire.'

This makes me feel like it would have to lean toward an any-occasion-use, based on the history of the shouts...

"To be trained in the art of the dragon shouts, also called the Voice, dragonborn individuals travel to Skyrim in order to climb a great mountain called the Throat of the World. At its peak they reach High Hrothgar, where an ancient sect of powerful Voice users named the Greybeards train them in their art.

Call it overkill, but I for one am very curious how Dragon Shouts work against lesser enemies. I know I wouldn't have the restraint not to use them against undead for instance (particularly those pesky wraiths). However, from a roleplaying perspective, I guess I understand where you're coming from.

I believe our character will not have Dragon Shouts from beginning, they need to be learn from some source first, maybe first one we will learn at beginning of MQ
so if you want roleplay some one who are not dragonborn just don't start MQ, but you will live in land thats was terrorized by dragons and split in civil war thats will affect your roleplaying.

If you’re so concerned about immersion why don’t you lobby for a hardcoe mode that erases your game saves when your character dies because otherwise re-loading from a save would ruin immersion?

You are a Dragonborn. You can kill dragons with added help and an advantage from shouts but fighting a normal wolf should be more difficult. Yeah like that wouldn't be "immersion" breaking, what you said is almost equivalent to we can use swords or magic against people but shouldn't be able to against wolves and deer because it would be overpowered. The shouts are supposed to have cool down timers which I can only assume would help keep them from being too overpowered/overused against non dragons.

Oh boy.... well I don't see a problem with that! (*hides under rock)

Actually, from a completely realistic point of view... a wolf is just as deadly to a human as a dragon... what kills you, kills you. A 250 pound warrior can still be killed by having his throat slit as easily as can a 120 pound commoner. its the tactics you use to avoid these types of injuries that makes the difference. Of course the game can't be 100% realistic... immersive and 100% realistic aren't the same thing. What does having hardcoe saving have to do with it other than flaming my posts and trolling anyway? Totally irrelevant. My point is that in every previous installment, you are able to be a famous hero, but the way you accomplish that is not pre-determined. In Skyrim, you are made to be a "Dragonborn class" in order to overcome the main storyline. I agree that you need assistance to defeat dragons, but, unfortunately, these powers do serve to flatten out the validity of other challenges in the game and the ability to roleplay. Its extremely unlikely that someone that can shout really loudly to slow time or stun enemies would also be able to be a meek, soft-spoken alchemist... but there was no reason in the other games in the series that a meek soft-spoken alchemist couldn't do what was needed in order to become the hero.

Not at all. As a matter of fact, that sounds like a really fun roleplaying experience! Just use the Dragon Shouts rarely or in dire situations, that way your soft-spoken character suddenly gets a huge burst of adrenaline when confronted with a life-threatening situation and unleashes a massive shout!

I suppose, it really depends on how the system works I guess. Its going to need to be on a very long cool down as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps instead of getting rid of it there should also be some kind of negative consequence for over-use/using when no dragon is around. That might also help balance things.

Yeah, there will definitely need to be some way to prevent constant use of Dragon Shouts. I imagine something like how the Greater Powers worked in Oblivion, only one usage per day. Maybe only one Dragon Shout per day since there will probably be a lot of them. It would be too game breaking to be able to do a shout that slows time over and over again, or any of the others, I imagine.

Actually, from a completely realistic point of view... a wolf would more than likely run away from a human unless starving or disabled in some way (diseased, injured) and can’t hunt as it normally would, because it sees us as a threat more than a food source.

Immersion- complete involvement in something that completely occupies all the time, energy, or concentration available (this is usually done by making the worlds and people have a more “realistic” and believable feel too them which draws the player or viewer into the game). Most people wouldn’t be immersed in a game if it used horses as a main character that hoped like a kangaroo instead of ran in a world where the sky is the ground and the ground is the sky, not just because it is stupid but also totally unrealistic in movement and environment although this may be a JRPG for all I know.

What does having hardcoe saving have to do with it other than flaming my posts and trolling anyway? To flame you and to show you that the game pausing alone would break immersion much less letting you instant-respawn-teleport-time travel back in time to before you died just to do it all again should break your immersion.
Totally irrelevant. No I just didn’t word it to where you could comprehend what I was trying to say.

My point is that in every previous installment, you are able to be a famous hero, but the way you accomplish that is not pre-determined. In Skyrim, you are made to be a "Dragonborn class" in order to overcome the main storyline.
Skyrim is different. That is how the devs want it. They probably want you to feel powerful this time around to a certain extent.

I agree that you need assistance to defeat dragons, but, unfortunately, these powers do serve to flatten out the validity of other challenges in the game and the ability to roleplay.
How exactly? The fact that you could use Dragonshouts against dragons the most powerful enemy but not something else should break your immersion weather overpowered or not just as using magic against something but not other creatures would. Dragons can use them against anything why couldn’t you? As I stated, there will be cooldown timers for all the shouts, which if the devs are smart they will make it so you don’t want to use them on a lesser enemy because at any given time you could be attacked by a dragon and would need them.

Its extremely unlikely that someone that can shout really loudly to slow time or stun enemies would also be able to be a meek, soft-spoken alchemist... but there was no reason in the other games in the series that a meek soft-spoken alchemist couldn't do what was needed in order to become the hero.
Now you’re just stereotyping.

The way I see it, you can roleplay anyone, with the plot point being that said everyman is thrust, willingly or no, into the role of Dragonborn. Therefore, if you do descide to go the "meek alchemist" route, then your in-mind development arc for the character would have to be the meek alchemist becomes more heroic.

The fact is, every TES game has forced people into an active role if any manner of plot is to advance, no matter what the filters say. If you are to finish the plot of Morrowind, the character needs the courage (or to find the courage) to walk into the heart of Dagoth Ur's realm and strike down the source of his power. The characters in later installments are no more or less actively heroic, just presented otherwise.

But if a wolf did fight you, and got a bite in on you in a number of sensitive locations, you would be just as dead as if a dragon burned you with flames... mortality is like that in reality. Just because someone can defeat a dragon, doesn't make a wolf completely non-dangerous to that same person.

Your explanation of immersion is lacking and poorly worded.

Save-stating may be non-immersive, but it is still entirely irrelevant to this conversation in this thread. Its a good topic, but its off topic. I also do advocate ways to eliminate this problem. To announce you're intent in bringing this up IS to flame is to admit that you have no actual interest in this conversation, and its not really tolerated very well on these boards to simply be an unwelcome intrusion on topics in this manner.

Obviously Skyrim is different... that's what the whole topic is about... I was indeed discussing the implications of how it differs. That is a pointless observation.

And yes, I am stereotyping... stereotyping doesn't only have to do with prejudice, it also has to do with consistency and roleplaying directly. You can like being a Dragonborn that shouts at every passing butterfly all you please, I don't care. I for one will not play the game that way, and see it as a flattening aspect rather than a deepening aspect for the fantasy. You don't have to see it that way, but I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make with your "rebuttals" of my opinions.

Can you complete the main quest in MW without becoming the Nerevarine(sp?)?

I see what you are saying though. To overcome the main storyline, yeah I'm guessing you will need to become the Dragonborn. I imagine though ignoring the main storyline it shouldn't be too hard to rp a non-Dragonborn hero.

You have to be the Nerevarine to finish the plot in MW. Its not being the Dragonborn that bothers me, its the implications that that has for the approach you then are inclined to take to handle any situation, not just dragons. The Nerevarine doesn't have powers that completely overshadow normal combat. You still have to use normal weapon attacks and magic as intended for any character Nerevarine or otherwise. A Dragonborn is incentivized to find and use abilities totally unique to the Dragonborn class. There is no "Nerevarine class' unless you refer to the minor ability to not get sick... which really doesn't add up to much because by the time you are the Nerevarine you better know some spells to cure diseases and have enough money to afford curative potions anyway. You could even wear equipment enchanted with disease resistance. The perks you get for being the Nerevarine are not a paradigm shift from the rest of the game's mechanics.

No matter how good a wizard you are or how successful an adventurer, you can't learn dragon powers unless you are the Dragonborn. I think the problem some people are having with me downing this system is that they like it... I like it too... for a character that roleplays well as a Dragonborn. It does flatten out the choices for what type of character you are though to make a big deal out of powers outside of the paradigm.

Completely disagree with this and the original post.

A dragonborn is some one special. We gert to be a Dragonborn. There are other but are rare, why woudl fire bursting forth from my mouth only hurt dragons just because it si spoken in their tongue, thats like saying magick can only harm mages.

In teh game you get to roleplay someone special. You can ignore the main quest, you can do it. Does nto matter, you have dragonshouts others dont. Its not a problem, you are someone special, thats who you get to be in gmae.