Roleplaying in Skyrim? : V - Skyrim

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:52 am

Kind of agree, but if you try and role play a master swordsman but in the game you always die in sword fights because you have low skill its not really role playing a master swordsman. It's just denial.

WHen i roleplay i dont give a damn about balance so theres simple option.. cheat?

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:25 am

Kind of agree, but if you try and role play a master swordsman but in the game you always die in sword fights because you have low skill its not really role playing a master swordsman. It's just denial.

And then that's a classic fault of the player, not of the game. Don't go into the game saying "I want to be a master swordsman!" when you haven't even leveled up blade skill(s). Instead, say "I want to be a character that will eventually become a master swordsman!" The Elder Scrolls series is about the journey and about the adventure. If you make a character that's finished, then what's the point? It's about starting weak and growing strong.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:14 am

I hold the same skepticism's as the OP.

I certainly prefer the attributes model, at least. Skyrim is still my most anticipated game of the year by miles, though. (and anything I don't like can be modded

)

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:13 am

Oblivion's examples are what's being complained about. The game included attributes, but hardly used them at all in determining what the character could or couldn't do. Your Personality skill only affected prices slightly, since the Speechcraft mini-game was all but independent of both Personality and Speechcraft. In Morrowind, they directly affected the chance of altering an NPC's opinion of you through Taunts, Bribes, Threats, and Admiration. In Morrowind, if your character had a low Alchemy skill or Intelligence, your chances of making a successful potion were lower, as well as weaker if they did succeed. In Oblivion, it was automatic. With spellcasting in Morrowind, at low skill levels you occasionally (too frequently, I'll admit) failed to cast; in Oblivion you couldn't even attempt certain spells at 24 skill, but couldn't fail at 25, and there was really no other significant advantage to 26, 35 or 49 points, until you reached 50 and suddenly unlocked the next "tier". Willpower simply meant "faster magicka regen" and not much else. The loss of meaning to the skills and attributes made them "irrelevant" other than as "on/off" swtiches, so now they're being removed completely in Skyrim. The need is still there, but now Oblivion's mishandling of them is being used as an example of why they're not needed.

Since it appears that all Skyrim characters will start out identically except for appearances, it basically removes any differentiation between characters at the start, and any "backstory". Now, a starting Bosmer will be just as tough as a Nord or Orc.

Totally agree

Like so much of the last game, your choices no longer matter, because all of the outcomes are potentially equal. When nothing matters, why play? You end up with a mindless hack & slash game with some pointless and empty RPG trimming to make it look like you've got choices that matter.

Totally disagree. Backstory is harder now but choices made during the game make much more a difference to your final character than in the past.

To me, having the numbers visible in front of me is a throwback to the "dice" days, and I can do without them.

Totally agree.

Taking the functional reason for those numbers out of the game takes the "game" out of the game, leaving nothing but a pointless "run around and kill stuff" activity to keep you distracted for a while.

Totally agree, but I think they have added function to the numbers now in the game so that in-game choices now really matter.

» Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:18 pm

Sorry, but are apparently not getting this. In previous TES RPGs, the beginning is where you create your character build. This defines who you are, your skills are based on (and should be limited by) your character build. The way that the rest of the game plays out is based on your Character Build (which makes some things more difficult, and others less difficult) . . . this is all based on being able to define characters with inherent strengths and weaknesses.

But with Skyrim, Beth concluded that many gamers were incapable of (or didn't want to have to put any effort into) creating a character build that would work for then. So they just removed the starting character build (along with the defining Attributes, Classes, and Birthsigns). So now there are no limitations on your character (no inherent strengths and weaknesses) . . . you can just play the game without having to think (or having to live with the limitations of your Build). This makes Skyrim a lessor RPG in my book, and I was really hoping that Bethesda would would put the RP back into TES this time.

I really doubt the whole, "no limitations on your character thing." I mean, sure at the start you will be able to do whatever, but I doubt I will be able to play a pure mage for the 10 hours, then go pick up a sword and kick ass. I am willing to bet I'd get my ass kicked unless I went back to the starting level.

And if some players can play "without thinking" Well good for them, but that doesn't mean most of us are. Really I think the only thing taking out the class system is take away that little label that was under your name.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:20 am

And then that's a classic fault of the player, not of the game. Don't go into the game saying "I want to be a master swordsman!" when you haven't even leveled up blade skill(s). Instead, say "I want to be a character that will eventually become a master swordsman!" The Elder Scrolls series is about the journey and about the adventure. If you make a character that's finished, then what's the point? It's about starting weak and growing strong.

Absolutely agree.

But additionally, to have a basic element to a back-story such as "[Char] used to practice with swords as a teen and had a little skill with them" would mean that their sword skill should be a little higher than other skills. Not the finished article but a little better. This could previously be done and hopefully we can still add some points to a skill to assist that kind of role play.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:36 am

Absolutely agree.

But additionally, to have a basic element to a back-story such as "[Char] used to practice with swords as a teen and had a little skill with them" would mean that their sword skill should be a little higher than other skills. Not the finished article but a little better. This could previously be done and hopefully we can still add some points to a skill to assist that kind of role play.

I also agree with the fault of the character thing. The class thing makes no difference to me, when I start to play, I'm only going to be using magic and possibly a dagger.

Sure I could go pick up that sword over there, and start bashing goblins to death, but I wont. The point of RP is what my character would do, not what he can do.

» Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:07 pm

It is a fact that in TES I through TES IV I could make a Female Nord that, at level one, is COMPLETELY different than a 100 others I could make. Sure these all get balance out with time, though some things like birthsigns and such stay with you.

I completely understand where you're coming from, and to an extent I agree, but I think you kinda answered your own question there. While it's a bit disappointing that all Level 1 Nords will be the same (unless my below point is the case), this only holds true until you hit Level 2, only right at the very beginning of the game. By the time two Nords hit Level 5, they'll have 5 player-selected perks that will have dramatically altered their play style; they'll also have levelled up entirely different skills (after all you level up skills by actively using them) and each will have a different total of health, magic or stamina points depending on which they choose to bump up each time they level up.

By the time each character is Level 20, your Nord Battlemage will play completely differently to your Nord Thief, even without the birthsign. And let's not forget that Bethesda have stated the "missing" attributes - i.e. Strength, Endurance, Willpower etc. - are all incorporated into the three "new" attributes (health, stamina, magicka) and perks - so for example encumbrance, which was previously linked directly to Strength, is now governed by stamina, or having a Strength stat of 100 to add extra axe damage on top of your 100 Blunt skill can be achieved by taking the "extra axe damage" perk. Even if the data labels have been removed, the data itself is still there, just in a different place.

Plus...

Hopefully they give us a few skill points to allocate at the start of the game.

...I find it difficult to believe that ^this^ won't be the case. If we don't get a few skill points to allocate at the beginning, I'd be very surprised indeed.

EDIT: This is only my 3rd post here and I may not be as up-to-speed as some people, so if any of the above is confirmed not to be the case, I apologise.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:09 am

Now the only thing you have to do is the background - you can focuse more on the narrative. Tell us that your character is a warrior, that he likes to hunt with his bow or something like that. You don't pick a class, you just tell the "audience" what your character is good in and then play like the class you intent him to be... and after some time you are the class you wanted to be^^ Makes even more sense now to me. If you pick the class paladin in another game, your character isn't paladin-like at all in the beginning. He becomes paladin later on, yes. But the level 1 dude in sackcloth is neither paladin nor spellsword nor battlemage, even if the game tells you he is

I also felt a little bit dissapointed at first when they announced it, but now i'm more optimistic.

thanks K.J. very well said! I was shocked at first but I am more excited than ever because of the no class and major/minor skills crap. I am who I want to be in the game and nothing is written in ink.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:14 pm

A lot of this, with the possible exception of those addicted to crunching numbers, could be easily resolved by giving players a few points to distribute to skills as they wish when they start the game.

This would, at least, give some acknowledgment, or merit to background. It would not have to be a full set, evern 3-4 points would help.

I recognze that as players, we have different needs/wants in how we approach the game.

Regardless, from what I have seen so far, for me, the Skyrim process will work just fine.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:22 pm

I have no doubt that by the time my character is level 20, 30 or 40+ they will basically be defined by the Perks choosen. Therefore I'll be a Master Axe and Shield guy because those are the Perks I picked, and if I tried to cast a spell it will be weak and ineffective (if even possible). This system might work. It might work great. Like I already said I may wonder why every CRPG before never used this system. But again it is very different.

The starting limitations can help define and REFINE the character you are playing. I am not crazy about weapon/armor class restrictions, like in Dragon Age where a non-mage can't even wear magic boosting gloves, but not being able to wear armor because I don't have the STR because I spent all my time reading magic books makes sense to me.

Every character in Skyrim will start out as a cloned Jack-of-All-Trades. Traditionally JoAT's svcked in RPG's (take the D&D Bard as an example).

Thing is there is a really easy way to fix this, just let us pick about 5 Perks at character creation. That in and of itself may be enough to get those like me really into the character from the start.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:49 am

Thing is there is a really easy way to fix this, just let us pick about 5 Perks at character creation. That in and of itself may be enough to get those like me really into the character from the start.

This is pretty much what the argument boils down to, and I agree. I'd be disappointed with all Nords being the same at level 1, but I'd get over it within minutes, as soon as my character started to develop along the lines I wanted. It would be perfect if we could pick a few skills to increase or perks from the outset, and I'm fairly confident(ish) that we will be able to - I mean, it's a standard RPG trope to pick a few skills to be strong in from the get-go.

EDIT: Presumably Bethesda haven't confirmed this yet (otherwise this discussion would be pretty pointless) but have they explicitly ruled it out?

» Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:29 pm

Sorry, but are apparently not getting this. In previous TES RPGs, the beginning is where you create your character build. This defines who you are, your skills are based on (and should be limited by) your character build. The way that the rest of the game plays out is based on your Character Build (which makes some things more difficult, and others less difficult) . . . this is all based on being able to define characters with inherent strengths and weaknesses.

But with Skyrim, Beth concluded that many gamers were incapable of (or didn't want to have to put any effort into) creating a character build that would work for then. So they just removed the starting character build (along with the defining Attributes, Classes, and Birthsigns). So now there are no limitations on your character (no inherent strengths and weaknesses) . . . you can just play the game without having to think (or having to live with the limitations of your Build). This makes Skyrim a lessor RPG in my book, and I was really hoping that Bethesda would would put the RP back into TES this time.

I don't see this point of view at all. In my opinion the way Skyrim is set up will require more thinking throughout the game than creating a build at the start. If you build at the start all the key character decisions are made and set so you just need to go along with them.

In Skyrim you'll need to think all the way through the game since actions and the choice of perks directly affect the character's final build all the way through. To me this seems much more involving and thoughtful than before where we would choose some skills, initially limiting us, and predominantly use them or die until the higher levels when all characters'skills and attributes converge because we have enough money to do lots of skill training and we've levelled enough to pretty much max all attributes. The old system pretty much forced our path. Now we will have to continually confirm our path with every choice, or rather every choice will confirm our path, and I see that as a good thing.

It's not a midless hack & slash system by any means as far as I can see.

» Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Thing is there is a really easy way to fix this, just let us pick about 5 Perks at character creation. That in and of itself may be enough to get those like me really into the character from the start.

Yes, this would be cool!

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:04 am

Just a quick background, I've been playing the TES games since TES I (getting it on the new updated 3.5 floppy disks!). I even played Battlespire (but not Redguard). One thing I loved about these games is the ability to role-play your character. And the roleplaying didn't begin when the game started. The roleplaying began before the character was ever created in the game. Sure I'd start a few characters up to learn the game and see what is needed and useful. But then I would spend hours and hours working on spreedsheets like these:

http://i54.tinypic.com/2ylr9sl.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/1omyqa.jpg

In addition to the build spreadsheets I would write up long and drawn out backgrounds, explaining why or how the character began in the class they were in or with the skills they had. Things they liked, did not like, weapons of choice, races they hated/loved, etc. My point being that all these earlier TES games allowed you to start your roleplay before the game started.

Now comes Skyrim, and honestly I feel like every character, whatever the race, is going to feel like a clone, an unborn ... thing, waiting for the game to start designing him or her from scratch. To be honest I am just not happy about it.

Now before you cover me with Napalm please note that I love TES games and have played them all a combined several thousand hours, so I feel like I can justify voicing my opinion here. I totally agree that OB needed some changes. But this total change from the TES standard by removing classes and attributes (and thus racial and birthsign bonuses to attributes) is just a huge step in another direction. The last franchise game I played that made major changes (Dragon Age Origins to Dragon Age 2) blew it completely (IMO) and I can not even make myself play DA2.

I will get Skryim and I will play it, but how soon before I am done with it. After I beat the main quest and slay a few dragons will the thrill be gone? Will I even want to bother making new characters as different races and played a different way (different perks). Or will I be ready immediately to move on to something else? Every TES game so far and held me and entertained me for hundreds if not thousands of hours. I am just concerned that Skryim will not have that kind of replay value with the way it is currently set up.

Your thoughts? (flame suit on)

First off, let me say that other than the OP's post I did not read each and every subsequent post.

OT: I forsee a morph coming to your spreadsheets and after a few charcter builds (maybe even one) you'll have changed the "data" on the left and plotted Xs for every perk you're going to take for a particular "build".

Roleplay how it suits you! I remember the days of paper, pen and dice and what you did for TES I-IV is what we used to do pre-personal computer age! Cheers! :tes:

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:47 am

You can always just decide from the very beginning "I'll be a stealthy guy!" and use stealth a lot, paying mainly for training in stealth and picking up stealth related perks.

Bonus points in skills/perks just gives an edge... an edge that may or may not limit you or you can easily ignore.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:34 am

Todd stated that an average game might last 200 real hours, during which you might level up 50 times (and gain 50 Perks). 200 real hours = 250 game days (based on a 30 Timescale) . . . which is less than 9 months. So my 20-year-old starting character would have no skills, no education, nothing they are good (or bad) at . . . yet during the 9 months of game time that I'm playing the game, they will suddenly be able to excel at any skill that they use. I'm having a LOT of trouble wrapping my brain around that kind of logic.

Easely explainable,you are damn dragonborn,who knows meybe you can more then just use shouts,meybe you are superhuman of some sorts and your potential started to shine when you reached 20 years. Second you can just pretend that before 20 years you was using other skills that cant be trained in game and give you no benefit in killing things,or just tryng to survive so you actually started to learn things like Sword fighting only now.

On a side note Arwen,loved your journals, a great inspiration for roleplays in oblivion and fallout,hope to see the one done in skyrim

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:59 am

My extent of Roleplaying is also kind of an aid for future playthroughs. I still think up a background for my character, why he was where he was, and what his personality is like. This second part usually only happens after my first playthrough; I play through the quest lines that apply to my character, in an order that best represents the build up of their renown, my current character in Oblivion is a warrior character, so he's going through the Arena and Fighters Guild at the same time, fighting arena matches until they become too hard each time I pass by the Imperial City, then he is going to go through the Knights of the Nine, followed by the main quest, and then shivering isles. As for Skyrim, I'll probably have to play through it once before I really immerse myself.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:12 am

Now I just hope they won't remove attributes in next fallout cause I'm gonna get mad :gun:

» Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Sorry, but are apparently not getting this. In previous TES RPGs, the beginning is where you create your character build. This defines who you are, your skills are based on (and should be limited by) your character build. The way that the rest of the game plays out is based on your Character Build (which makes some things more difficult, and others less difficult) . . . this is all based on being able to define characters with inherent strengths and weaknesses.

In previous TES rpgs, how you started out was completely irrelevant in regards to stats, simply from the fact there is NO limitation whatsoever, everybody can become everybody. In this regard Skyrim beats everybody except maybe Daggerfall, simply from the fact that you will NOT be able to become a master of all. This imposes MORE need for thinking than before, because what you choose is not reversable, and you cannot experience all builds with a single character, unlike the former games.

But with Skyrim, Beth concluded that many gamers were incapable of (or didn't want to have to put any effort into) creating a character build that would work for then. So they just removed the starting character build (along with the defining Attributes, Classes, and Birthsigns). So now there are no limitations on your character (no inherent strengths and weaknesses) . . . you can just play the game without having to think (or having to live with the limitations of your Build). This makes Skyrim a lessor RPG in my book, and I was really hoping that Bethesda would would put the RP back into TES this time.

But Arwen, if you cared to do a little research, you would see that races still have race specific bonuses, and you would see that Skyrim requires more thinking than before, because you cannot pick all perks with one build, and what you pick cannot be reversed, when you unlock one door, you close shut another forever with that character. Skyrim is the first game where you "having to live with the limitations of your build" there has been no limitations since daggerfall.

Let's have a little IQ test here,

which requires the most thought?

A: a system where you start with different doors open, but every character can unlock all doors eventually.

B: a system where you start with basic doors open, and every time you proceed through a door, there's another you will never be able to go through.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:41 am

In previous TES rpgs, how you started out was completely irrelevant in regards to stats, simply from the fact there is NO limitation whatsoever, everybody can become everybody. In this regard Skyrim beats everybody except maybe Daggerfall, simply from the fact that you will NOT be able to become a master of all. This imposes MORE need for thinking than before, because what you choose is not reversable, and you cannot experience all builds with a single character, unlike the former games.

No it wasn't. Picking your Race, Gender, Birthsign, and Class was what determined your INITIAL stats. There were limitations at the beginning of the game, which was why it was possible to make a "bad" character build. As I stated in my first post in this thread: "This wasn't done as well as it could have been, but it still worked (This could have been fixed just by slowing down the leveling up speed, and by making the Attributes only rarely increase, and by limiting the maximum amount that a skill could increase based that skills governing Attribute)."

You cannot "experience all builds with a single character" in Morrowind or in Oblivion. Maxing out your skills is not experiencing all builds. AND you will still be able to max out all your skills in Skyrim.

But Arwen, if you cared to do a little research, you would see that races still have race specific bonuses, and you would see that Skyrim requires more thinking than before, because you cannot pick all perks with one build, and what you pick cannot be reversed, when you unlock one door, you close shut another forever with that character. Skyrim is the first game where you "having to live with the limitations of your build" there has been no limitations since daggerfall.

Look, I've done the research, so don't try to insult me. The Racial differences are going to be very minor, Todd even stated that, they don't want to impose limits, based on what race you chose.

I just don't happen to agree that fast leveling and a bunch of perk bonuses can replace attributes, Classes, Bifthsigns, or Gender differences. Unlike many, many on this forum, I'm not buying all the hype. In my OPINION, you end up will much less depth, and much less of a RPG.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:59 am

I haven't heard anything about fast leveling...

» Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:52 pm

I haven't heard anything about fast leveling...

In one of the first Skyrim interviews, this past spring, Todd stated:

“We don’t code in a maximum level. There is a theoretical maximum depending on what your skills are. The one change we’ve made is that you level faster. We’ve sort of balanced Oblivion and Fallout 3 in some respects to like a 1 – 35, 1 – 30, so if people play for a long time that’s the kind of high level with creatures and whatever. This one is balanced like 1 – 50, but that isn’t longer in gameplay. You do level faster, a lot faster, especially in the beginning of the game. Because of the power in the perks, we wanted to be giving them out at a higher rate. The actual maximum depending on your particular character how it works out might be 75. I don’t really know. I’m just saying we don’t code in the maximum level. It will end up whatever it ends up.”

http://nerdtrek.com/skyrim-details/

» Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:49 pm

No it wasn't. Picking your Race, Gender, Birthsign, and Class was what determined your INITIAL stats. There were limitations at the beginning of the game, which was why it was possible to make a "bad" character build. As I stated in my first post in this thread: "This wasn't done as well as it could have been, but it still worked (This could have been fixed just by slowing down the leveling up speed, and by making the Attributes only rarely increase, and by limiting the maximum amount that a skill could increase based that skills governing Attribute)."

Yes INITIAL stats, which is irrelevant, because they don't remain INITIAL, this is not fallout where your stats overall stay the same, this is TES where the stats went up with use of skills, for every race you ever had you could get 100 in all attributes and 100 in all skills and there was no perks to differentiate anything.

You cannot "experience all builds with a single character" in Morrowind or in Oblivion. Maxing out your skills is not experiencing all builds. AND you will still be able to max out all your skills in Skyrim.

Maxing out everything means I can do everything, not so with skyrim where it has been stated REPEATEDLY, that the power lies in the perks, and so maxing out to 100 does not grant you the POWER inherent in that skill unless you specialize.

Look, I've done the research, so don't try to insult me. The Racial differences are going to be very minor, Todd even stated that, they don't want to impose limits, based on what race you chose.

You insult yourself more than ever could by claiming knowledge, yet showing ignorance. They don't pose limits on race choice, but they do have inherent strengths, and they now have a system which poses more limits than before, every perk choice is another not chosen, the limitation has not been more present than ever.

I just don't happen to agree that fast leveling and a bunch of perk bonuses can replace attributes, Classes, Bifthsigns, or Gender differences. In my OPINION, you end up will much less depth, and much less of a RPG.

I easily believe that, maybe with the exception of birth signs perhaps, everything else was skin deep, depth is nothing if it's paper thin. Quality > Quantity/Choice + Consequence on the path you take, those are what defines you, these are the real values of an rpg in my OPINION, oh erudite Arwen. The beginning is what you leave behind to roleplay the rest of the game, an insignificant part of the overall experience.

» Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:57 am

This is the topic that finally spurred me into making an account and posting.

Even though this seems to be the minority opinion I agree with LeBurns and Arwen that the removal of being able to choose your starting skills is almost irreplaceable when it comes to roleplaying.

As a new age gamer I find it hard to overlook gameplay for roleplaying aspects having not grownup with D&D and the like. When it came to Oblivion and Morrowind I could not stand the combat, but the fact that I was able to play and enjoy the games as a whole attests to how strong the roleplaying elements were in those games.

Personally, being able to plan out my character with initial skills, the skills I would focus on throughout the game, added hours to the games. "How can I effectively build and play a Deathknight? What skills would they be strong in?" Removing those initial choices limits the planning and background I can add to the character. Having a limit on which skills you picked made for tough decisions. Clearly this takes place in Skyrim as well considering you level faster if you stick to a few skills, but this all takes place after character creation.

Obviously I am still excited for Skyrim otherwise I wouldn't be reading these forums, and being an aforementioned new age gamer I am really looking forward to the much improved combat systems. I'm just a little bummed out about the lessened depth of character planning/creation, but not too worried as I'm sure mods will be out within a month of release to address any concerns I may have.

Lastly, @Daydark.

Your posts have been attacking Arwen personally, not just their opinions and is highly disrespectful. This only serves to scare new posters from sharing their opinions for fear of being belittled. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them less intelligent than you.