:foodndrink: My bad my friend, So you're House? or maybe Solo?

In the given circumstances? Yes, it is very grey. But just some stray wastelander shoots a woman and her child just because he wanted to try out his new gun, then it's evil. But the reasons why and how the Legion do it, it's morally grey.

Like I said, if their was group in todays world that behaved exactly as the Legion does, I'd want them dead or atleast disbanded. But, after all, this is a video game we're talking about.

"Commodore" Jack Coonley, who is basically Liberty Valance but looks like James Coburn is Independent. The NCR has a bounty on his and Raul's head for terrorizing settlements, robbery, sodomy, skullduggery and other crimes against the republic.

The first town in which you encounter the Legion in F:NV is testament to the methods of the faction. Where the NCR would make a town a protectorate (allow it to remain autonomous and to serve the NCR by providing resources and manpower in return for military protection), the Legion will destory the town and reap whatever it can that may be useful (manpower in the form of slaves, and one shot resources). The Legion's method of expansion is a total scorched earth policy, only less intelligent because they still rely on supply lines, and if they lost them, then they'd find the harsh Wastes are made more harsh since they've gone ahead and removed pretty much all (as far as can be in post-apocalyptia) 'civilised' settlements, and resources.

Sending a warning ahead of your armies by brutally killing and torturing the occupants of a town is all well and good for the Kubla Khans of history. But the Legion would torch a town and murder and torture its occupants even if there were no witnesses and no message was needed. Hell, you can level one town and have that serve as a warning to all those who defy the Legion, but even if a town let the Legion in peacefully, it could expect the same treatment.

Legion = Evil ... No grey. I'm not saying the NCR is much better, but if you empathise with a settler of the Wasteland, and stop putting yourself in the boots of a Legionary for a minute,, I think you'd know who you'd rather came a knocking at your gates. Hint: Not the Legion.

I can understand wanting to play for the legion side. The game tries to funnel you into being an NCR stooge. The number of quests and settlements are heavily favored to helping the NCR. My next build, screw them. :violin:

I'm currently roleplaying as a mad Dinky the T-Rex souvenir collector, I currently have 150 in my bathroom.


http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m627/Darren1875/Dinos.jpg

EDIT: Oops, fixed the link

Well of course I'd rather have NCR knocking on my gates personally, but only because that could benefit me, not because their "good guys". It's also considered morally wrong to let others take the punishment/blame for your actions, but I would and have used others to protect myself like that in the past.

Besides all that, morality is subjective, and just because you say that the Legion is irredeemably evil doesn't make it so.

Agreed. To quote an NPC; "You can use all the Latin words you want, your still just a bunch of thuggish raiders."

While Caesar may want to found a new Rome, how will his methods of policing his own state be any more efficient than the NCR's? The Legion is like four or five hundred strong and want to occupy the whole Mojave. Things would be ten times worse if the Legion took command. A new Rome isn't needed. Caesars illusion of grandeur are just that. There is no Pax Romana to be found, since the Legion has never even had it themselves. They don't even know what it is, just an archaic idea passed on through the generations. I would go so far as to say that the legion more closely resembles the Enclave rather than the NCR.

Nice!

Lol at Caesar and his Legion being morally "grey."

I mean what has the NCR done that is "evil"? Make people pay taxes?

I haven't completed the game yet but this certainly strikes me as the more "bastard" choice. Siding with the Legion is, in some ways, not purely evil. Taking everything for yourself is pretty selfish and tyrannical.

Huh? Assess your reasons for wanting the NCR to knock on the gates instead of the Legion. The NCR clearly have a greater appreciation for human life, and for certain freedoms. If they were to adopt the code and method of the Legion they could no doubt consolidate their resources and truly become a force to be reckoned with. Uniting against the Brotherhood saw a surge in volunteers because they were uniting against an oppressive faction that tended to look out for itself. The priveliged few. The NCR is spread thinly because they are protecting some settlements, even at the cost of some strategic locations. There is a degree of law, one that protects more than a few in power, or the many too afraid to disobey (slaves).

In other words. Put it this way, a future with the NCR would benefit your kids, one with the Legion is bleak - unless they happen to be born into a privileged position. Your moral code is fitting for the Wasteland. But you're not putting yourself in the position of a relatively unskilled settler living day to day in the Wasteland. You're only Jonny Q Special because you're the PC in F:NV, or Jimmy Q Badass when you're imagining being a Legionary, your moral subjectivity is only as good as your empathy, and if you can't imagine what it feels like to be nailed to a wooden cross or thrown on a pyre, then you're somewhat stunted when it comes to deciding whether nailing someone to a cross, or throwing them on a fire is good or bad thing.


Ha ha! :thumbsup:

The NCR are weak and lazy. Lets take the beginning of the game for example. At Primm, 15+ soldiers just camping outside saying they cant kill the 8ish powder gangers that occupy Primm. Now a courier, right of the bat and just haven come of a hospital bed can?

Your moral values border on psychopathic as far as i can see.

And let's be honest here... you never heard about them torturing women an children... let's consider the developers abilities to do such a thing without it being rated R and being banned in 99% of the countries around the world.

Yeah because filling Primm with convicts would have been a joy to play as a low level character. lol But uh, if you want a real ingame reason they didn't go in since the design of that area seems flawed? Uhm. Maybe on day one the NCR were deployed with 20 soliders, but the convicts had a sniper positioned and 5 of the NCR guys got owned on the approach. He's since moved inside the hotel and is chilling out, as it was clear the NCR figured losing more men would jeapordise everything and stopped making attempts to take the town, and they decided it was better to contain the convicts and alert travelers to the threat by holding the road.

When the Courier arrives the approach is safer because the sniper isn't in position.

Edit - Maybe they're worried for the civilians inside, and were awaiting more men to better organise a strike team to take the town with as few civvie casualties as possible. I could do this making things up thing all day.

I find the concept of the ends justify the means to be evil so...

Reread my post, bro. I said that if it were reality, I'd rather deal with the NCR than have the Legion role into my settlement. It could benefit me personally because, while there is a possibility that the Legion would take me as one of their soldiers, it's more likely I'd be crucified or enslaved. I don't quite get what that has to do with morality. The Legion would come to town either because we were next on the list to be absorbed into their army or because the town as a whole was generally composed of people with questionable morals themselves. If they just intended on absorbing us then I doubt their would be much killing at all. The strong would become an army member and the weak and the women would become slaves. In the Fallout world, the NCRs way of governing it's people has already shown itself to fail, otherwise their wouldn't be a wasteland to begin with. The Legion could stop another appocalypse perhaps because people being too afraid to commit crime or because their being very little technology allowed to survive.

Also, I think you should know that I do not like the Legion. I don't "imagine myself being a Legionary." Really, I don't see either the NCR nor the Legion being particularly good. They both have positive things to bring to the table, but that is still overshadowed by the negatives. I don't intend to appear as though I'm saying the Legion is the best possible thing to happen to the wasteland. The NCR are better without a doubt. I merely say that the Legion is not entirely evil as most think. I've yet to have a playthrough favoring them, as I've only done the independent route and the NCR route so far. I'm doing the Mr. House one right now. I'd say the independent route seems to be the best choice so far. Letting the people govern themselves and the protectrons only stepping in to stop violence.

EDIT: My moral values are borderline psychopathic? lol

I think in regards to the legion i think once they get there "Rome" (New Vegas), that they will calm down and now that they have a stable area with power they may focus more on building the new Rome. Granted they will kill everyone in the town, but only to set up what they believe to be a new world, eventually they will have to settle and i think this is where it will happen.

Correct.

I did read your post. You seemed to be having difficulty understanding what constituted evil and so I tried to get you to empathise with the settlers and the little people as you seemed only to be seeing morality and moral goodness through the eyes of a member of the Legion. That's not a good place to be and the morals there are severely lacking. My only point is... evil in its purest form can be found in the Legion.

Anyone capable of throwing other human beings on fires and nailing them to crosses holds their fellow men in scant regard, as less than human. These men aren't entirely evil, they're probably nice as pie to their brothers and lovers... but that doesn't mean they're not comitting very evil acts every time they take part in taking a town and torturing its occupants, seperating families, killing fathers and taking women as slaves...

Not for a greater good either, most of the women will probably be used for something other than working fields, cleaning houses or polishing the armour of the Legionaries. If you don't know what I mean, try imagining being a simple settler, and being made a slave to cater to the men of the Legion, who aren't so fond of women. :cryvaultboy: So yeah, being nice to friends and lovers but still capable of killing and torturing other human beings in a wholly sadistic way based on laws and judgements made on the spot without any kind of rational process, doesn't make the Legion a grey evil. No matter what the ultimate goal of the Legion, their methods are evil.

You took the side in defense of the Legion as being 'not evil', or 'not as evil as NCR' it's not a winnning argument, unless you're Caesar or one of his cronies. :thumbsup:

Edit - There are many volunteers fighting in the NCR.


Rome collapsed when its Legions became too powerful, dictating who would be the next emperor, and ultimately fighting for the honour of having their favoured candidate take the helm of the Empire. It was easily destroyed by its outward enemies as it was weakened by this infighting, and no doubt with help from its slave population. The future for a successful Legion in F:NV emulating ancient Rome, is bleak.

Six Words -------->Desperate Times Call For Desperate Measures.

Looking out for the world is a stretch too far for one man. especially when the world wants your head and your stuff. Looking out for those close is what you would do in a situation such as this.

OniOne I agree with you completely. I've heard people say that the goals of the Legion and the Enclave (in F3) justify their actions, but life is habit. What we do now is what we will do in the future. There are zero right ways of doing what is wrong. Or maybe I just like playing as a Paladin.

If you NCR supporters listened to the people of the wastes they have slaves as well, they just call it prisoners which means slave labor. I think most people have problems with crucifixtion because they think crucifixtion= Jesus= evil. The NCR let's people starve which is just as bad as letting someone die from exposure and the Legion does it to drugrunners, yeah they breed women but that's the one flaw I find.

Couldn't agree more!

actually when i think crucifixion i think of basically starving someone until they have no enegery to stand on their own, end up slouching and suffocating to death.

But to each their own.