I absolutely did not take the side of the legion being "not evil" or "not as evil as the NCR." I took the side of the Legion being "not entirely evil." They do horrible things, and I'm sure a lot of the people effected by it are generally not as well off. I'd say the most evil thing the Legion do is suppress the rights of an individual. They kill people for not wanting to join them, even if they did not fight against them or for the NCR. If they only stormed places that held groups of people who had defied them and struck against them, and if I was there AND if I was part of the Legion, I'd take part in the crucifieing, enslaving, and general butchering of the town too. They had tried to destroy my organization, and by extent, me. That's not to imply I would actively wish to join the Legion in reality, but if I was left with option of dieing or joining I would join. I wouldn't care one bit about the Legion as a whole, I'd be looking out for my own personal well being.

Their may very well be a "greater good" behind Caesar's Legion. The NCR, even if they suceeded in all their greatest wishes, would likely lead the world into a second nuclear war, forcing humanity right back to where they were to start with. I don't see this happening with the Legion in control. Their methods, if done chaotically and at random, could be considered evil, but as it is this is the only way to achieve what they want to get done. If they politely asked if a settlement would join them and accepted all the declines and moved on, maybe stopping to feed the hungry on their way out,, they'd end up huddling together in an old abandoned mormon fort like another organization I know of.

Once again, I'm not pro-legion. If anything, I'm pro-individual. The people of the wasteland should be allowed to do as they please so long as it does not harm anyone but themselves. Neither the NCR nor the Legion would allow that to happen.

EDIT: Noticed the Enclave from Fallout 3 comment up above. I fully supported with easter BoS in Fallout 3, as they actually did good. They stopped violence whenever they saw it, and they stopped it well. They didn't arrest people for being in possesion of drugs, they didn't claim settlements as their property against people's will. They allowed wastelanders to do as they wish so long as they didn't harm others to the best of their ability. The Enclave were entirely in the wrong, wanting to kill everyone just so the select few who were in the Enclave could prosper.

I'm not an NCR supporter. But I will use them as the lesser of two evils, and seperate them completely from the evil that is the Legion. The 'slave labour' of the NCR is based on laws that any settler could understand, and probably assigns sherrifs and marshalls to enforce. If not, then their law isn't disimilar to the NCRs, but they enforce it themselves. It's just basic law as most of us understand it, without the complexities of lengthy due process and law speak. It's like a wartime law. Looting, robbing, murdering, infringing on the rights, or not rights, but wellbeing of others is punishable by this law. You are imprisoned and you serve a sentence and are put to work.

Just from playing F:NV it's pretty obvious to me that most of the NCRs outposts and positions are poorly provisioned. The NCR 'letting people starve' is kind of inaccurate.

Rome collapsed when its Legions became too powerful, dictating who would be the next emperor, and ultimately fighting for the honour of having their favoured candidate take the helm of the Empire. It was easily destroyed by its outward enemies as it was weakened by this infighting, and no doubt with help from its slave population. The future for a successful Legion in F:NV emulating ancient Rome, is bleak.
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Disagree. Although NCR will still be a problem in the future this blow could make them decide to cut their losses and retreat. Also that this assumes that the leaders in the future will reflect Rome exactly which will problem not happen. If they learned from Rome's mistakes they will probably be able to come out even stronger. Who knows they will probably grow out of using slaves as they turn away from war and on to rebuilding and economy.

why are you calling them Caesars? There is only one Caesar (pronounced kaizar )

And then what happens is they charge for room and board, food, water, clothing, and anything else they can think of so that there is so little actually going to paying off your sentence that there is no way you can ever leave. They did that to blacks and other people during our history.



I know maybe you don't but so many people were complaining that they couldn't kill children and so many people have no problem with killing anything that moves, but crucifying people is all of a sudden evil. That's the only reason I could think. Torture is evil, taxing people til they can't feed their children is evil, so what I want is these other things to be thought of as evil too. There are a lot worse things than crucifixtion of people that everyone is glad are gone.

That is evil. There's no grey morality about it. I already said, where the NCR would possibly make a protectorate of a town - the Legion will destroy it. The NCR is comprised mostly of volunteers, and its core resources probably come in from the many settlements flying its flag, identifying themselves as a part of the NCR. Towns that aren't taken or made protectorates are left to fend for themselves. The Legion destroys towns, destroys the occupants it can't use, and makes slaves of anyone based on who is deemed worthy and who is not, those deemed unworthy are killed.

Nipton in the Mojave was put to the torch because one member of the town sold information to the Legion, (he was deemed disloyal and so Nipton was deemed a den of disloyalty ripe for the purge), this wastelander said the town was full of wh ores and criminals. Maybe he was turned down for a turn by the local beauty and he resented it? Maybe he resented the possessions the other settlers had that he did not? Whatever his motivation (I suspect they were the attitude you promote and that I agree with to an extent - he was out for himself and looking to improve his circumstances) the Legion used his word and destroyed Nipton, and did so in the most calculated, and brutal way possible.

The NCR doesn't do that. I get you're not a Legion fan boy, but if you read through your previous posts (morality is subjective) you'll see that you were trying to blur the boundaries of morality, of what constitutes good and evil, and what can in fact be called 'grey'. The Legions methods, obviously are anything but, they're clear, crystal clear.


They have committed a crime to get there though. A basic crime breaking laws we all understand. Harsh environment the Wasteland is prisoner welfare is fairly low on the agenda. I reckon a few people will be falsely imprisoned (they are today, loss of liberty would kill me, forget labour), others will have committed crimes because they didn't have a choice - hunger - but that's out of sight goodness compared to the Legions acquisition of slaves, which is exactly akin to the slave trade with blacks. NCR is like a colony with colonial outback law, not even contemplating anything like the slave-taking habits of the Legion.

How is the fact that NCR doesn't have enough resources to even keep its soldiers properly fed letting the people starve?
Anyways the NCR is no more evil than the U.S. government and the CL no more evil than Old Rome. Take that as you will.

Morality is different to every person so to you they may be evil. Some people think the crusades were good some don't so it's up to our own personal feelings.

Oni, you need to read (or perhaps re-read) some history. Your explanation of why the Roman empire fell is pure ignorance.

Then they shouldn't keep making these people fight for them or make these people support them. They are allowing people to fight for their own gain under false pretenses when they know they don't have enough helmets. It's their own fault.

For people saying the Legion treat their slaves fairly are wrong listen to the woman who can give you healing powder in the fort

If you ask how the women are treated, she says something along the lines like "well we are their property" which if you add two and two together... you should know the answer

I am not saying it isn't their own fault. Just that it doesn't make them evil just incompetent.

so because they broke a law they should be in jail forever. The people the legion crucify are also law breakers. Their slaves also get a chance to rank up.

The legions infighting was a major contributing factor, weakening the empire, not exactly gonna sum up in one paragraph a three century decline am I? Christianity essentially carving up the empire... expansion of other tribes hostile to the empire...

If you think you can enlighten the forum with a paragraph on the fall of Rome, I'm all eyes. :blink:


No. You're missing the point. We're comparing the two factions, and I said the NCRs rule of law is one all Wastelanders can embrace, and if you visit any settlement with a sherrif, one that they do. If you encountered Nipton in the game you'll know the Legion crucify, burn, torture, and taunt before death anyone regardless of any supposed crime. Their slaves get a chance to rank up? Great. The NCR accepts volunteers without sacking towns to get them. :shrug:


Edit - Man this post reads as haughty. lol Sorry guys. :laugh: Bed time for me. Eek! :cryvaultboy:

I don't think he legion is completely evil. Yes by todays standards they are but in the wasteland they arent so completely evil. But their methods are barbaric and evil. The end goal for them is what justifies the means. The one problem I have with the legion is the thing that went wrong with the mongol empire. They are all following a man. The mongols were following Genghis Khan and when he died the empire fell apart. The same will happen with when Caesar dies.

-Minor spoilers-
This is how I see them. The ends justifies the means. I think what's written on the Legion denarii translates to "Peace through war." Caesar's goal is to unite everyone (mostly through force) so there are no opposing factions to fight each other. At least they try to justify their actions and aren't just "I am evil, I kill people, fear me." I mean, talk to Inculta in Nipton. Heck, talk to Caesar himself. Fun character.

you are missing the point. I know it's a wasteland law but that doesn't mean that just because I break a law I have to be in jail forever. I go to jail and pay what I should, maybe a little more, that's it.

Yep. That's my only point. Whatever the vision, however nice and shiny... the methods are evil from any angle, except the visionary's, and the people who follow him. :laugh:


Again, comparatively speaking (NCR versus Legion), you're missing the point. With one faction you're enslaved regardless of your actions, with the other you are imprisoned because you've broken a basic law we all need to adhere to in communities in order for the community to function. I agree they shouldn't be imprisoned forever, most of the guys in the NCRCR are serving sentences, and would have been released had they not revolted so they're not all imprisoned forever.

The same can't be said for Legion slaves, who didn't make a choice to commit a crime knowing there'd be consequences of enslavement. They were just made slaves from the get go. :shrug:

To you and your moral compass is what I'm trying to get at. I actually may follow House just because the money, but I would love the Followers to rise up.

The only time the end justifies the means is if there is any logic in the means at all.

Is killing and enslaving everyone really helping the legion move forward? or is it just a side of entertainment and masculinity?

Those powder hangers would have never been released. The NCR uses them for free labor and weren't going to give that up. You are only reading what you want to.

I'm done do what you want, I know when someone isn't wanting to change their opinion.

The majority of the Powder Gangers I spoke to were murderers. Scrambler when asked what he is in for: "Killed a couple of people, some kids, whatever." Not the kind of person you release. However there were people like Meyers, who were serving time that would have an end, s'why Meyers didn't get actively involved in the revolt... I'm guessing. :shrug:

Edit - If not, he was also in for murder, and so not eligible for release. Law and sentence for crimes committed, it's out of sight compared to the Legion enslaving anyone and everyone.

** It is called a Correctional Facility though, so it makes you wonder if there would be no correcting and releasing going on, why is it called that?

Meyers was a short timer.....from what was said about him he was due for release in the near future. He got put in the pokey for going Dirty Harry on perps, not rolling Wastelanders, so he probably was charged with a lesser offense like Manslaughter. Aside from being short, he would as soon shoot a felon as look at one, making him a poor fit for the Powder Gangs.

I like what he said on the radio...."Howdy! I'm Sheriff Myers. Be good, or I'll have to shoot you dead!"

I can barely remember the convo I had with him, but I thought it was along those lines of being too eager to dole out an even punishment. I can see the NCR removing his badge and throwing him in the slammer for depriving them of potential workers. lol Appreciate the confirmation. :thumbsup:


Ha ha! Yeah I liked that update. I wish I could stumble across these 'reporters in the field' mentioned in that report though. That'd be class. :laugh:

Oni, what led to the fall of Imperial Rome was quite simply inflation. The Imperial government quit accepting its own issued currency for taxing purposes and accepted only gold. It turned around and used that gold to pay its soldiers and civil servants, as its beauracracy expanded it needed more gold and the costs of running the government became ever higher, this continued ad nauseam until it created the very conflict you describe.

The NCR finds itself on the cusp of becoming an empire itself, with poor representation, a corrupt beauracracy and soldiers and civil servants seemingly angry about being paid in fiat currency (the miners near Sloan). Caesar (*Spoiler*)





















discuses the fact that the first lady president held office for 50 years largely through fear. Caesar himself discusses that dialectics and the facing off of thesis and antithesis will cause his empire to change after conquering the Mojave from largely a nomadic tribe of raiders (He himself calls the Legion this) to an actual state, creating the synthesis. Caesar seems to realize that both the democracy of the NCR and his own tyranny are evil, but that the Legion has the most potential to start moving along the path to true republicanism (little 'r'). As to how the Legion would police its own state, it does a far better job of that than does the NCR; just ask the merchant near the entrance to 'The Fort' as he tells you that all raiders and criminals have either been slain or driven out by the Legion and that his life is easier within Legion territory than within NCR territory.

True to Caesar.