Here's the bottom line - there is a lot of discussion about how to balance this and that, what you should and shouldn't use, how to play the "right" way and what not - but there is a VERY simple solution... AMAZINGLY simple... that will allow everyone to enjoy the game and experience a challenge regardless of how they play...

Add more difficulties above Master... say Legendary, Daedric, Dragonborn or whatever else... which present a challenge even to those who are playing the "wrong" way. This would in no way impact the game of those of you who choose arbitrary ways to restrict yourself while allowing players who don't like to police themselves in an open world role playing game have a challenge.

There aren't any individually focused, completely open, SINGLE player RPG's that account for min/maxing and make everything viable. Bethesda could have restricted you to specific classes but they didn't. Freedom always comes at the expense of balance.

If I were given the option to scale enemies hitpoint and damage anywhere from 1x to 100x what they are on Master difficulty, I could of course find a value which presented a challenge to me while making my choices, whatever they happened to be, feel balanced. Can anyone possibly refute this statement? Of course not, this is a very simple case of Bethesda not play testing the game enough to realize they needed to add more range on to the upper end of the difficulty scale, nothing else.

Would it make sense for a Khajiit to be Dragonborn and supposed ruler of Cyradil was it?

I'll start off by saying that people aren't coming across these overpowered builds in natural, roleplaying fashion. They use console commands to experiment, post up their results then hundreds of people copy their formula and complain about how easy the game is.

My main point is that clunky hybrids aren't going to be balanced. The ability to experiment is what makes this game great, but experimentation will always result in different degrees of viability. If you want what feels like a ideally balanced experience you would be best served to pick a finite role, though.

i agree to an extend. people who read up guides and proceed to build an OP character then complain about the game is plain idiotic.

However

I believe balance DOES matter in a game when you are making a permanent, un-alterable decision to shape your character.

for example, smith being too easy to skill up...

there are people (my friend included) who never come to forum, decide to role play as a smith and end up with best gears before hitting lv20. all of sudden the game become so easy even on master, are you going to tell them to svck it up because they play it wrong?

imo, i think at least we can make skill up a bit harder so less people will accidently "max" their character.

oh and again, i agree people focus too much on "balance"

I'll say again - "clunky hybrids" (whatever that means in an open world, play as you choose RPG), could very easily be balanced by simply providing more range on the upper end of the difficulty scale.

Realistically they should also include the option to scale down hitpoints and damage for people who want to focus purely on things like speech, pickpocket and lockpicking. In a game that gives you absolute freedom people will always find ways to break it in one direction or the other. Since this is a non-competitive single player game it's not really Bethesda's problem. You dictate your experience.

I don't think maintaining balance is actually a matter of playing within pretend class constraints. (I play a warrior/mage with enchanting and smithing skills and still have an appropriately tough time in combat.)

Rather, I think the issue is that if you spend a disproportionate amount of time grinding to improve your craft skills, then you're going to find combat disproportionately easy to your level.

In other words, exercise some balance in how you spend your game time, and you will find the game more balanced. Go out of your way to beef up your character, and you will be unstoppable. That's not a design flaw; it's a feature to help out people who might WANT an easier game. And I know these people. They're not on the Bethesda Forums complaining about Skyrim because they can't stop freaking playing it.

Balance is important to any game. There is a difficulty slider for a reason. There needs to be settings as such that the game is easy enough for those who roleplay in certain ways and settings that make the game hard enough for those who min/max.

Why should the game be too easy just because I decided I wanted to make my character the best it could be? There should be a difficultly setting that allows me to master Enchanting, Blacksmithing and Alchemy and still provide a challange. I didn't powergame or use console commands, I just felt it right that as the Dragonborn whos job it is to save the world then it is only right that I learn what I can before coming up agaisnt the destroyer of the world.

I am not doing anything wrong by playing the way I do, Skyrim is just lacking in several factors with difficulty being one of them.

Sure, scaling down would be just fine too. Broken gameplay IS Bethesda's problem. It never ceases to amaze me the number of people are seem to believe that Bethesda has done us a favor by developing Skyrim. We are the customers - they should be thankful for US.

If you are going to provide players with the option to choose the difficulty, providing a difficulty where players can not one shot the most powerful bosses in the game through completely legitimate character builds is absolutely a reasonable expectation.

It is all well and good that some people want to run around the woods in a loin cloth shooting deer and selling the leather. At some point however, the developers should have absolutely anticipated that some (many) players or RPGers will say to themselves, "Hmm, how can I make myself as powerful as possible", and explored what that meant. Once they determined these type of builds, massive one handed boosts and what not, they then provide a difficulty which is still challenging for such a build.

Go play The Witcher 2 on Dark Difficulty and min/max to your heart's content and then get back to me on weather a RPG can provide a challenge to min/maxers. lol.

Leveling smith levels you up as well and I can't imagine with undeveloped combat and armor skills you'd fare very well on master. Still I agree smith shouldn't be so easy to level.

Well then I must be in some strange category of people, as I determined the synergy of smithing/alchemy/enchanting on my own. I started out with smithing, just having fun making steel armour to wear, then dwarven/orcish/ebony/daedric in a rather fluid manner.

I dabbled in enchanting, as I realized that while enchanted items were nice, the prospect of dual enchanting (something my character learned by apparently starin up at stars) seemed so tempting. Finding fortify smithing items only proved that enchanting could allow for a stronger smithing ability.

Upon finding a fortify smithing potion I learned that crafting could be fortified via alchemy. This caused me to practice alchemy until I could make capable potions. And then I realized I could iterate through this to create stronger gear.

This actually did occur in a fluid and "natural" manner. About the only "cheating" I did was determine that there (fortunately) was no fortify enchanting enchant, or fortify alchemy ingredient.

It can occur in a fluid, RP sense. To forcibly say "My character doesn't even consider enchanting" though is just silly. Its an option thats readily available. Its right there. Theres even a quest to try it out. Yes, you may be a warrior, but you can indeed cast soul trap with little to no issue, and enchanting an item takes so little effort.

My point is, once again, how the heck do you so narrowly define these "roles" and get away with calling it good roleplaying? Roleplaying almost inherently means coming to an understanding of how the artifical world that surrounds you works, and working within the constraints of that artificial world. If enchanting is so easy for the Dovakhin, then why not do it?

This is exactly how I planned on playing from the get go. Role playing well known class types and joining the corresponding guilds and the like. I must say this is indeed the best way to play. I started off as thief/assassin, who crafts poisons and fights with light armor, bow and dagger. 40 hours in and I still have so much to do like finishing thiefs guild and starting dark brotherhood, and still have main quest as well. I also clean cities of all their valuables without getting caught, staying within a thief mindset has really svcked me in.

There is the ability to role-play hybrid classes as well. I plan on playing either a duel sword wielding destructive Mage in heavy armor that enchants or a mace, shield and heavy armor wielding paladin class that uses restorative and alteration magics. Or perhaps a worrior craftsman who forges armor and weapons, and enchants. Whatever choice, there are guilds and quests to suit them.

All and all I believe strongly that staying true to your character and role-play, yields the best and most challenging experience possible.

I agree. I think too many people are using everything available to them, and those are the ones saying that the game is too easy. I have a mage with bow experience, but no blade ability or armor, and very low health. I can tell you right now, any battle I get in, is challenging; especially at the harder level which I play.

He uses alchemy, destruction, bow, and restoration...very little else right now. He might learn alteration or conjuring at some point, but he's just starting out at level 24. Seriously, if you really role play, and limit yourself, you'll be saving every 3-5 minutes, because you don't know what's around the corner.

The Witcher 2 gave you so little options in how to develope your character I don't see the comparison. I already said Bethesda could have done that but chose freedom over a tightly restricted and balanced experience. The best way to get that balanced feeling you got from the witcher is to restrict yourself the way the witcher restricted you. I explained how to do that in the OP.

Bethesda wanted us to be able to do whatever we want; breaking the difficulty included. It's not their concern.

Are you happy? If so then you are doing it perfectly. The whole point of TES games is the freedom to do what you want. My suspicion is that the QQ is because many of us have played warcraf between oblivion and skyrim and have become too used to FotM toons and cookie cutter builds. Too many people don't seem to realize that this is a single player game and so you don't need the BiS build. If you make a accidentally make a build you find fun, but that is too powerful, then turn the difficulty up. If you make one that is too weak then turn the difficulty down.

It is not as if you get extra epeen from playing a harder setting. Use the settings to make the game appropriate for the toon you are enjoying playing.

Why do people keep fallaciously implying that anyone with issues regarding the balance of the game are min/maxing?

Well put. You have stumbled upon the reality of this "you are playing the game wrong" argument - it is total hogwash

Great topic. I 100% agree. Roleplaying is what balances the game. For example, I took Algor's words to heart when he said "iron or steel is what you need, leave that fancy elven stuff to the elves". I have used only one sword throughout the game and I'm level 36. And the same hunting bow. And steel arrows.

Mages still broken.

Conjuration on it's own breaks the game(Thank 2x Dremora Lords!)
Destruction with enchanting is unstoppable since it gives you 0 cost spells.
Alteration provides 80% damage reduction.

You don't need to go hybrid to break Mages. Regardless though we should not have to limit ourselves due to poor design.

Your characted isn't born an infant and a sponge, the need to try everything in the world is coming directly from you. A warrior likely wouldn't become a master of enchanting. A mage likely wouldn't become one of the best blacksmith's in skyrim. Roleplaying is playing a role, not enacting all of your personal curiosities.

I agree on every point man. Without imagination you can throw this game in the basket.

I tend to agree with the original poster, at least to an extant. I might be a little bit less imperative about it.

That being said, its true that you'll get the most out of this game by imposing your own limitations. By playing your role. You need to make use of your imagination and be able to suspend your sense of disbelief. Anyone who approaches an Elder Scrolls title looking to min-max their characters and expect the game to be balance are either terribly misinformed or have unrealistic expectations from Bethesda. Each itteration in the series continues the same trend: It is incredibly easy to overpower your character.

Its easy to fall for anyone of the many traps out there. Moreso as you gain experience with the game's system. Perhaps some are facing this issue now, more than ever, because they've now played at least one other game in the series and are better versed with the system. They inadvertantly "exploit" it without realising that they are. I call the the Scrolls Veteran Syndrome. I fell for it myself with my first character. I failed to set myself some limitations and realised I was grinding iron daggers to level my blacksmithing. I realised I was hoarding every single item out there, even if didn't fit my character in the slightest, and ended up with an giant pouch of gold.

Right now, I'm at a point where I'm considering a new character, or rather, a reinvention of my first character. With proper limitations this time around.

Some of the rules I'm setting myself:

- No Lockpicking. I'm a warrior and a mercenary, not a thief.
- Blacksmithing only with gathered supplies. Need leather? Hunt. Need Ore. Gain access to a mine.
- Work for your bed and breakfast. If I'm going to stay at an inn or enjoy someone's hospitality, I'll make sure to head out back and chop up some wood for them.
- Do quests that fit my character. Two idiots are fighting over a sprightly lass? Why the hell would my mercenary get involved?
- Travelling woes. Exhaustion. My character's crawling through a blizzard. A steel helm's going to get him frost bite. Lets get a hood on, and try to find a camp. Maybe get some much needed sleep.

I think you are; I did the same thing and loved it.



I did that as well, minus the Steel Helmet part which I didn't think about. Know, however, that playing within that system on Master is a serious challenge, and it's horribly satisfying. As for the Blacksmithing part, I'm personally waiting on a mod to fix the ridiculous experience similarity between the crafting of an Iron Dagger and the crafting of a Glass Dagger. Even if I used nothing but my own supplies, my level went up a tad too fast no matter what I crafted. I ended up resorting to crafting only the most sought after weapons, Swords, and upgrading them as much as possible.