This is going to be quite a good bit of fun and Star's katanas are fantastic! Look forward to seeing this come out. :foodndrink:

NM

Thanks for the linky. It'll give me something to work on when I get bored making dungeons.

~ Dani ~

Hey there Danielle,

I was just browsing the forum again when I stumbled across your mod and found people comparing your work to mine. I must say yours is much richer, more elaborate, and most certainly more lore friendly than mine. Great ideas you have there and it seems you really put some time and effort into it. I never had the patience to do all the dungeon and quest work, I wish you were around when I released my swords and cried for help

Happy modding! Oh and thanks for you kind words...

Good to see you there Adonnay. Comparison of Danielle's mod to yours is a compliment indeed! Love your mods!

Well, it's never too late for help. When my current project is over, I might send you a PM.

Seriously, tho, Adonnay, you're one of my heros. I love your Elven weapon mod and for a long time I've been thinking about finishing the elegantly beautiful armor that the player picks up in the cottage (by adding greaves and boots). I liked Hadhafang so much that I made a short quest for it (kind of an intro to questing). I never released it out of respect for your original design.

You designs appeal to me - like Christmas to kids. I won't forget the first time I saw "Morning Glory" in OOO's Shadows in the Struggle for Power quest. I consider that sword one of the most beautiful things ever made for Oblivion. It's still my favorite sword.

Okay, I'm gushing. I doubt that I'll ever to be able to make weapons as beautiful as you or StarX. I'll just be happy if I can give them a place in the world.

~ Dani ~

Aww, that's a tempting offer

Again, thank you for your feedback. I mean feedback is all we modders get when we publish something and, while I also appreciate constructive feedback, the kind words from users who enjoy the work you spent hours and months in creating is the only - and at the same time - most important reward. I'm not sure that I quite deserve your praise but I certainly appreciate it

But back to your mod. Are you really intending to create ten new dungeons from scratch?

Actually, there are more than that and most of that designing is done. This mod will add two or three new forts and add lower dungeons to seven or eight existing forts. It will also add a new dungeon type: Catacombs. The lore is that in the First Era, during the war, the Empire had to bury their dead in protected catacombs beneath forts (maybe because the Akaviri ate the bodies of their dead enemies?). These dungeons are not linear, like the Bethesda dungeons. The are small mazes with doors leading to crypts. There are generally between ten and twenty crypts in a catacombs, including the one with the Ventaria. Some crypts are empty; some are .... not. The player will have the experience of kicking open doors to see what's behind them.

The catacombs will give the player access to the ten Tombs of the Ventaria, which are standard in design but unique in execution. I've halted design on the catacomb dungeons, tho, to inspect a couple of tile sets that I might add to the install. Currently, I'm using the standard Bethesda Oblivion tile sets to keep the download to a minimum.

So the basic design is something like this:

Existing Bethesda Dungeon
___________________________

Dungeon level 1: Ancient First Era ruins
___________________________

Dungeon leve 2: Catacombs
___________________________

Dungeon Level 3: Tombs of the Ventaria


One issue tho: how much fighting can people reasonably endure, running back and forth on a quest? Fighting your way through one or two or more layers of a Bethesda dungeon, then three layers of mine (granted level 3 is very, very small), only to find that you're given a quest to complete. You complete the quest by going all the way out only to have come all the way back in. If you're using a mod that resets the standard Bethesda dungeon respawn time, it could be a fight both ways. I don't mind fighting, so it wouldn't bother me, but some people might find that very, very aggravating.

One solution might be to set a standard respawn for five days and if the player is tardy, well, they pay for it. Or set the cells to not respawn - I'd find that boring. Feel free to voice an opinion, but I'm thinking - in the end - if you don't want it to respawn, you can use a tool or a mod to arrange that.

Another solution is to put entrances close together so the player can move quickly up and down through the dungeons, but can chose to explore if they wish. This is the one I'm liking best.

The current quest count, per my project outline, is 22 independent quests (ten are for the Ventaria) if I implement them all. But with each passing day, I think of another idea ...

The thing I struggle with is making a mod I would play - something than isn't done in four or ten or maybe even twenty hours - and having to deal with frustrated, angry people who just want to get the swords. I'd want getting the swords to be a challenge so that people would think: "Wow, that was hard, but look at this cool sword!"

Also - I'm giving away too many secrets here - the mod will include at least two new kinds of flora: Black Nightshade and Funeral Flax. Guess where the only place to find them is?

Enough. This mod has been a huge learning experience for me, and I have a lot more learning to do.

~ Dani ~

Well, I really hope you can see this through... sounds very time consuming.

Anyway... I would refrain from sending the player back and forth through the same dungeon. I personally wouldn't like to delve into the same dungeon twice unless there's large portions of the dungeon still to explore behind locked doors. I would also try to make the creatures unique and poweful instead of the standard spawns or a mix of both. A few smaller boss mobs here and there can really spice up any dungeon crawl. Respawns, that's another story. I prefer the feeling that I actually achieved something when I cleared out that dungeon and sent those undead back into their graves. If they just keep respawning it doesn't really feel heroic or of any impact at all. If it would be possible I would even change the way the dungeon "feels" into something less dark and threatening after it has been cleared, i.e. by changing the light, the fog or the ambient sounds. The common mine and elven ruin xyz might have respawns but quest dungeons which are of a certain importance should feel unique.

About the deep dungeons I liked the way Bethesda approached this. Usually in the larger dungeons you can unlock secret doors which provide quick connection between the different levels, but those secret doors can only be opened from the other side. That way you have to explore the dungeon at least once to open the secret passages but at the same time you can use the quick route the next time you enter.

For the impatient players who just want the swords... add the IDs to the readme. I wouldn't even comment on such requests. If people don't want the dungeon crawl but only the swords... just let them spawn the weapons via the console.

But twenty hours of gameplay probably requires more than a year to develop for one person. Honestly. Without any artificial time consuming loops you let the player jump through (which tends to aggravate players) to prolong the playtime you can be happy if you achieve a playtime of one to two hours. And that's even more than some commercial DLCs can claim which are created by whole teams.

What I would suggest is that you build your mod in stages or episodes. One dungeon (and sword) at a time, each with its own story and background but at the same time the later episodes build upon and require the previous ones.

Edit: By the way... how would you like the idea to create a new Katana/Sword mesh with unique new textures? As much as I like StarX' weapons they are already freely available. A mod of that scope should award the player with something completely new.

Adonnay has some good ideas here. I have my respawn set to five days, so I can be reasonably assured that if I have to return to a dungeon, it won't have respawned. Having to fight my way through the same undead twice in quick succession would be aggravating. I was going to suggest setting a secret or one-way door near the entrance, but he beat me to it.
IMO, undead shouldn't "respawn" unless there's an evil force animating them - once you destroy them, they should stay dead.

As far as the swords: yeah... when you make a walkthrough/spoiler file, just add the codes down at the bottom for people who are too lazy/impatient/whatever to work for them.

NM

As you suggest, I've spent a great deal of time on it so far. I have written and rewritten the "stories" involving the Ventaria. I have developed a quest outline and project plan. Then I started designing weapons and quickly grew frustrated. I have Adobe Masterworks Suite CS4 (which includes Photoshop), as well as several professional plugin packages (Topaz and Nik's software packages to name two), and I've have a couple of Photoshop classes, so I'm not a complete newb to image or texture editing. Still, I couldn't make swords as beautiful as the ones StarX made. (I can retextures a sword; the trick is making it look, well, perfect).

As I've said, finding StarX's swords was fortuitous. That saved me a lot of time.



Yes, I've never felt good about sending players back and forth. However, in one case it's going to be absolutely necessary. In other cases, it makes the story richer, and gives the Ventaria depth. I suppose the quests could be given to the player as a request (Will you do this for me after I'm dead ...) and then the player can choose do them or not.

What you're suggesting with creatures would certainly increase the creation time for the dungeons. Currently, the dungeons rely on spawn points to create enemies. That's easy. Just put a spawn point in where you want a creature. This allows me to use Oblivion spawns points that mods like FCOM and MMM rely upon, so players with those mods will get the all the creatures they add.

But that is the catch: the dungeons are like every other dungeon the player enters. And the creatures respawn. To change this, I created the catacomb design, with has several rather unique features - in terms of lighting, etc. Using clouds and lights settings, I can create a different "feel" for the dungeons.

As I already noted, the Crypts/Tombs follow the same layout. This is a limitation based upon the Bethesda tileset I chose. It can really only be constructed in one way, with some very minor changes. To make the the ten tombs look and feel different, I've put different things in them, played some tricks with the lighting, and so on.

Someone else also suggested using gates or secret doors to allow access to other parts of the dungeon to explore, thus making it easier for the player to return to the dungeon, if necessary. It would be like running up a flight of stairs, sort of.

Tthe heart of what you're suggesting - the removal of spawn points in favor of specifically placed creatures - would definitely make the dungeons more unique. Creatures could be tailored to the personality of the Ventaria, to reinforce the theme of their story. And that would certainly take much more time to develop as I would want something than just standard Oblivion creatures and I would have obtain permissions to use some of MMMs stuff, and so on. Another issue would be making the mod flexible enough so that the player wouldn't feel as if he had to be right at Level X to enjoy the mod. So from a design perspective, it might be nicer but more limiting. From a development perspective, it would take a lot longer. Definitely worth thinking about, though.



That statement about hours is probably true. I don't fast travel. I can't fast travel. I use a mod that adds some cool map features but allows me to disable fast travel. I do use Arthmoor's excellent Cyrodill Travel Services, but my characters still do a LOT of walking. Also, I disable the green triangle and tend to forget others still use it - and feel quite passionate about using it.

By example: I usually complete the Mages Guid Recommendation quests in about two to three in-game weeks. I travel. I rest. I get sidetracked helping the citizens of Cyrodiil.

I suppose if someone relied upon fast travel, they hit all the dungeons, fight their way through, get all the swords ... I don't know. I can never judge time or difficulty. I remember when I started playing FCOM. I had just learned how to sneak and use poisons. I fought my way through Ft. Blueblood at Level 6 - then someone told me it shouldn't be attempted until Level 12. So sure, the right player will probably just sail through this.

You say stages and I think of Dumas and dikeens, writing their novels one chapter at a time. Still ... there might be something too that. I wouldn't feel rushed and I could add one or two more side quests that would make the entire mod story stronger. Each release could have it's own title ... (yes, I think it terms of story. ) with the final release bringing the entire story together. I will seriously consider that. In fact, I will probably follow some for that design.



Edited: The discussion of this topic will take place off forum. StarX is on vacation and I owe him the courtesy of making no decision without his input.

~ Dani ~

I don't disagree with you, because you have a point. I just want to present a counterpoint. I've got Nico's weapons compilation - about a dozen bows, a set of armor, and some other weapons. I've had it for quite awhile now, through 3-4 different characters. I've never found ALL the bows, and each character had a different bow that "fit" - I use the Bow of Bones one time, then the Dreadweave bow once, and my latest is using Doomshard. I suppose if you're a collector who likes to display weapons (like me), acquiring all the swords over and over would lose its luster the second or third time. Unenchanted swords can be kind of "blah", but most people see them as an opportunity to customize them to your own taste.

Plus, exploring the dungeons with different charaters can be fun in itself (assuming, of course, you don't play the same type of charcter every time). There are different challenges inherent in your playstyle - a sneaky rogue-type might find it a lot easier than a warrior in heavy armor who tramps through the dungeon carrying torches or a light staff... or vice-versa. Likewise, a mage with lots of summons would be a completely different experience.


:nod:


I've found that static mods are easily as popular than levelled ones, if not more so. Look at how many people use OOO or FCOM.


I think as long as you state a recommended minimum level, you should be all right. Besides, can't you set dungeons to not respawn in the CS?

I suppose if someone relied upon fast travel, they hit all the dungeons, fight their way through, get all the swords ... I don't know. I can never judge time or difficulty. I remember when I started playing FCOM. I had just learned how to sneak and use poisons. I fought my way through Ft. Blueblood at Level 6 - then someone told me it shouldn't be attempted until Level 12. So sure, the right player will probably just sail through this.


Some other modders have done just that - Iliana with her Elsweyr mod; NNWARE with the dungeons (they later merged everything into two esps when it was all done); povuholo with KDQ (that was more updating a single esp with new quests, but that's probably the route you'd want to take).

OOO and FCOM are not static. The spawn points put in by FCOM (and I assume OOO) do respawn. What doesn't respawn are certain bosses and unique creatures/NPCs.

So if the suggestion is to keep spawn points in the dungeon (for the minions), but to use some hand-placed bosses and unique creatures, that could be done, too. I have to think about this a bit.

~ Dani ~

You know, you do a lot of work for a great idea, get started, tell people about it, get great suggestions, and suddenly it could be like starting all over again. But there is hope.

Best idea suggested here is to do it in stages. Makes it very manageable and you can keep the time line. You can also modify the concept based on player reaction to the relesed chapters.

Now wanting to be left out, I like the original plan. However, I would be intersted in an alternative goal:

Love the story, need that. I would play to just find out how it ends, nevermind the swords.
Swords are fine but I play in first person and they do not look that different (except for Adonnay's elven swords) in that view. I would rather have to find these swords because putting them together at a final quest location will yield some reward like:
Book of knowledge - stat increase, maybe a magical power, may just free some aliens, or just a title (like hero of Kvatch). The swords are irrelevant, it was the mind wrenching quest that will bring back memories.
I would rather the dungeons not fully respawn. I hate that. There are enough caves, dungeons, ruins that you will quit Oblivion before you finish them all (at least I would). So if I have to revisit a dungeon I rather it was dead or just have some looters or some bandits using the empty place for a hideout.

Either way, my two cents worth. Looking forward to a good read. If you do make chapters, it is going to be hard waiting for the next one. And heavens forbid you do not finish for some reason! That would be plain cruel.

Thanks for your interest and your suggestions.

The Story:

Many, many hours (no exaggeration) have been spent writing the story and it will not be changed. A project plan, building a working script out of the story, has been written. A quest outline is written. Backgrounds on every one of the Ventaria have been written. Dialogue is written. Whatever else changes, after this much work, the story won't change. Sorry.

Stages:

I'm convinced stages is the way to release this mod. Understand though: even this decision has consequences and makes for additional work. One challenge: where to divide up a previously seamless quest outline. I think the number of stages will be less than ten.

Spawning:

I've spent almost three hours today reading up on spawn points, etc. (I work in a library, I have time to read.) I also cracked open the OOO .eps for research purposes. This is my decision on spawning.

I will take advantage of spawn points at the minion level. In order to do this, I am going to redesign the dungeons to allow for ease of passage in the event the player has to return. Side quests will now be at the discretion of the player. Even in OOO, the Bosmers in the Shadows in the Struggle for Power Quest respawn.

There will be one respawning boss per level. This is for the player that may want to revisit the dungeon later.

All other bosses will be unique. Kill them and they're gone forever. The decision is for maximum playability as wells as, I admit it, ease in dungeon design.

Item drops and other rewards:

The swords are the story. Obviously, you'll get the swords.

I've also created some unique flowers (not a lot, but a bit). There will be other new items as well - nothing too crazy, this is my first mod. Rare wines, stuff like that. A new book or two, which will have value because they are original copies.

I plan to release a COBL version and an FCOM version. But that will be a later release.

The bosses will drops stuff, there will be chests, etc. There will also be minor increases in various skills, etc., but not enough to make you super-powerful before you leave a dungeon.

That's going to have to be enough stuff.

Titles:

:) You won't be getting a title. In fact, when you're done, no one will ever know what you did. Sorry.

Dungeons:

You needn't worry about replaying all of them. Some of them will seal forever at the end of the quest. It's part of the plot.

Finishing:

I'll finish the mod. So far, I've accepted comments as offered. But this one is grating on me a bit. I've bit my tongue to this point because people do publish vaporware all too often and in that context, I suppose, the comment is appropriate. Usually mods die because people want to do something and then realize it's harder than it looks. Modding is hard. Just ask poor Darkrider over at TES Alliance. I've probably driven him batty with questions.

But this mod will be completed. I've put too much work into it to stop now.

~ Dani ~

I meant static as in "doesn't level with the player". Which is technically incorrect - OOO/FCOM do have a level range, but it's limited (as opposed to vanilla where bandits will level from 1 to 50). What I was suggesting was just make the bad guys a set level, but if you're going to do an FCOM-compatible version, that will do just as well.


Not a bad idea, actually... low-level stuff like skeletons could reasonably be brought back by the ambient energies present in the tombs, while higher-level/unique undead are animate for other reasons (sheer will, dark rituals, etc.) - destroying them means they wouldn't come back without some serious intervention.

Yeah, I'm a former D&D player/designer... does it show?

I love your possitive attitude towards completion. Also, for a working title just call it GOTHIC GIRLS' SCHOOL. That will have them mystified until it comes out...and double mystified when they find out it has nothing to do with a girls' school.

Hey Dani,

I'm truly honored to see that the katanas are being used in such an ambitious mod that is well thought out and offers a way more rewarding/immersive way to obtain the weapons. I personally always liked finding weapons either in dungeons or on the leveled lists, but alas, I was lazy when I quickly finished the katanas when I came back to modding Oblivion after a small break. :blush:

As for the general mod design I'd say try to stick with your own plan as much as possible as from personal experience I know how easy it is to get sidetracked by new ideas and suggestions. You can always make alterations or optional versions/plugins once the basic design is finished.

Cheers,

StarX

UPDATE (10/5/2010):

I've had a disaster of sorts recently: while talking to a professor, I dropped my MacBook down a flight of stairs. Luckily, I had backed up all the data, which included this mod and all its resources. It took about ten days to get a new MacBook but now I'm up and running again and back to work on this mod.

My biggest decision right now is whether or not to enchant the swords. (I tried to put a poll at the beginning of this thread, but I guess I can't create one after the thread is started). There are three basic options. In considering the options, please remember that you will be able to buy lesser quality replicas, which are still good, but not powerful swords.

Option 1: Do not enchant the swords, but make them sufficiently powerful to justify the work involved in getting them. In a vanilla game, this would make them among the most powerful weapons in the game. In addition, the player would have the flexibility to enchant them or not, as they wish. This is my preferred option, but I'll admit it may not appeal to others.

Option 2: Enchant the swords with magical enchantments that require soul gems to replenish. This would, obviously, remove the players ability to enchant the swords as they wish, but would make them more valuable for resell. This is my least favorite option, as trying to balance an enchantment against literally thousands of mods gives me a headache!

Option 3: Enchant swords with a scripted enchantment (e.g. Adonnay's Classic Weaponry). This would be my preferred method of enchanting the swords. Again, the player would NOT be able to enchant the swords, but they wouldn't have to use soul gems, either. Additionally, I would - with Adonnay's permission - include his adjustment scipt, so that players could adjust the swords as necessary to meet what overhaul mods or weapons mods they were using. This would prevent the need to make a bunch of balancing .esps.

Additional information: These swords will not be lying around and there will be some fighting to get to them. There are currently twenty dungeons and some are multi-leveled. In addition, the player will receive other "rewards" for their labors, but these will all come from the vanilla game (to increase compatibility).

I'd like to get some feedback on which option people prefer.

~ Dani ~

My vote.

Option 1 please.

Option 3 is my least favorite - Adonnay's classical weapons (with scripted enchanments, without any limits of usage) make micemeat of any opponent, however powerful. IHMO, that is almost akin to cheating.

Also, why make replicas? That concept just boggles me. If these swords are so ancient, how come low-quality replicas still exist? I never use replicas, and like my swords to be unique, so I would vote for dropping replicas (who buys them anyway, once you get the real thing?).

The only reasons for including replicas - seriously - are (1) for those who simply don't wish to find the swords by crawling through a dungeon, (2) (if enchanted), then to allow a player to enchant the swords as they wish, or (3) to allow for duplicates or model versions if the player wanted them. If no one wants replicas, I can remove that feature with three clicks of the delete button. I thought I was doing people a favor.

As for enchanting, bear in mind that others have already stated on this forum that they might be "frustrated" if all they got at the end of dungeon crawl was a great, but unenchanted, sword. I'm good with leaving them unenchanted, but the original release will probably not be FCOM or MOBS balanced. That would have to come later.

~ Dani ~

Unenchanted.

No matter what you do, you are NOT going to be able to please everyone. So, do what YOU want. Balancing enchantments given the sheer volume of material available, IS a nightmare. I can see why you wouldn't want to inflict that on yourself.

Would it be possible to make the mod using Option 1, then offer Options 2 and 3 as seperate plugins?

Thats the way I would try do it.