Could someone clear this up for me... Do we choose a perk each time we reach a milestone in a specific skill or will we only be able to choose a single perk each time we increase our characters total level? My concern is that if we only get to choose one for each level up (like in Fallout 3) ill end up missing out on a lot of perks for each of the skills that would improve my lovely skyrim experience. :mellow: P.S. can someone give me one of those fishy-sticks I've heard so much about?

Again we come to this : apparently more choices in how to improve your combat effectiveness is more of a role playing experience, unless it's perks. Maybe someone would be so kind as to enlighten me how they would add depth and freedom. I am damn sure it's not going back to my endurance can increase more because I used a shield lots, and a 1 to 100 scale for every perk not only smells like rules bloat, but removes the necessity of making choices as to your character's build that a limited number of perks requires.

It amazes me that adding non combat options in the game, and altering ( we have yet to see if it is for the worse, not on paper, but actually in the game ) the character progression system, makes some think this is somehow more of an action game. If the aim is an action/adventure game, then surely introducing log chopping, marriage, jobs, cooking, friendships etc. is counter productive.

One thing for certain, the perks require choices, choices that did not need to be made in previous titles. Your character can master something, or a few things, or become a jack of all trades, master of none. Sounds to me as though even if your idea of role playing is all about your character's stats, what an armour slot and attributes taketh away, the new need of decision making giveth.

*sigh*

Haven't we had this argument before?

I proved you wrong last time and explained how you can have an RPG without any choices whatsoever. Yes, an RPG without choices would be incredibly boring - in fact, it would outright svck... but it would still technically be an RPG.

You cannot however have an RPG without stats. The key thing here is RP part of RPG (roleplaying) - you're playing the role of someone. That means your character needs to have their own skills and abilities, and there needs to be some way for this to progress as you play the game. The only way of achieving that in a video game is through stats (please note the term "video game" and refrain from brining pen & paper RPGs into this). Whether the stats are hidden, or not, they're absolutely required otherwise you're not playing as some other character - you're playing as yourself... and it becomes an action game.


I'll make it really simple:

RPG elements:

Stats in relation to character ability and progression - essential
Choices - non-essential, but certainly important in any RPG that wants to be successful

Other elements more related to a believeable open-world (ie. the open-world half of an open-world RPG):

AI
Detailed dialogue and NPC interaction
An economy
Factions
Survival features
Ways to have an impact on the world
Multiple ways to approach quests
etc.

Elements that may make the game better, but are neither important for an open-world game or for an RPG:

Storyline
Cinematics


It's really that simple.

Yes, absolutely, although I kind of suspect we will not get spellmaking.



As we increase skills, this provides both XP toward character level and unlocks some perks based on the skill level. Also some perks require another perk in the chain to unlock them. Then when you level up your character level, you get to pick one perk among all the unlocked perks

Todd Howard: Perks “come from levelling up character rather than skills. Pick a perk when you level. It’s like a standard skill tree but they have requirements, not just the one below it. You see a perk you like and say I’m going to start using my sword more because I want that perk.”


Source: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/skyrim-skills/

In other words, some perk requirements are simply "the one below it"

Other perk requirements are skill must be at X or higher - you have to increase a skill (like 1H) to a certain level in order to unlock some of the perks.

And most likely there are some perks that have both kinds of requirements

If that's what an RPG is, then I don't want to play an RPG How in gods name you can call a game a RPG if roleplaying is impossible, I don't know, but I want a game I can roleplay in. If that doesn't suit your definition of a RPG, that's fine. But if all an RPG game is a bunch of numbers, then I don't want to play RPGs - I want an open world game, that allows me to roleplay. And I think that's what even Skyrim's fiercest critics want.

Sport you must realize that you're both right, right? You're just focusing on different aspects of roleplaying games, arguing semantically about which one of your stances is the true core of an RPG.

Doesn't much matter who's right, I happen to agree with both of you, but here's my question for you: what's more important for Skyrim between adhering to your definition of an RPG and expanding the game world in a way that enables more roleplaying and interactions with the world (the smithing farming and such)?

I personally favor the latter over increasing my character's stats with numbers.

I understand the reasoning behind your stance by the way Sheogorath, and I don't necessarily disagree with it; it just isn't what I view as integral to a fun RPG, you know?

RPGs are about choice.

Not just choice in the story, or gameplay , but in character development too.

In older, action and jRPGs tend to focus on the later, instead of the former.

Now this could show in multiple ways, but not just in numerical stats. It can show in skills, perks, inventory items, mods, anything that choose able really.
In Skyrim you'll be able to raise the skills by choosing which one you'll going to use and using them. After every level up, you'll be able to choose which of the three stats you're going to raise and pick one perk, depending on your current skill level and other perks. These perks will enhance the part of the skill they are under, either by adding bonuses or even abilities.

So if Skyrim is not an RPG enough, might as well admit that neither Witcher or Deus Ex was one either...

You seem confused, my friend.

Roleplaying = playing the role of someone. ie. a character.

In a video-game, that character has to have stats to determine their abilities, and to allow progression during the game. Without stats, everything is determined by your own skill (not the character's) and it's effectively an action game.

I'm not saying that's all that makes a good RPG. Of course choices are very important. In fact, any RPG without choices would be absolute [censored]. The point is, it would still be an RPG nonetheless.

I agree 100% on every point you made, well said.

I acknowledge and understand the stricter, stat-driven interpretation of what makes an RPG an RPG...but to my mind that's a bit archaic; it smacks of pen and paper games. I never played pen and paper games, so maybe that's why that aspect doesn't seem very appealing to me.

Regardless, I'm much more satisfied with the skill system and interactions with the world available to us in Skyrim, than in Oblivion.

There's more to do, and we can do it with greater depth. That's a win in my book.

How are skills determined? - With stats Character skills cannot exist in a video game without stats working in the background.

How are perks determined? - With stats

How do you determine the power of an inventory item like a weapon, or the weight of a junk item? - You guessed it - With stats


The Witcher and Deus Ex are both RPGs because.... wait for it.... the player-character's skills and abilities are determined by....


Stats!

Things like quests and factions that allow different paths, choices and consequences for actions etc, are the essence of roleplaying. You can have an incredibly complex character creation system and combat mechanics but if the game is linear and allows little choice it still won't be a good RPG.

Despite what I've said in previous posts, I disagree with your wording here Sheogorath.

Roleplaying = playing the role of someone, fact. Everyone agrees there.

Attributes don't define the character though, to my mind. They define his capabilities, yes, but when I RP, it's about my choices in the game world, while I quest, while I choose how to play the game and customize my character as I level up (do I explore combat skills? Magic skills? Stealth?).

The Attributes are the least important part for me. Skills (and therefore, perks too) are the most important part of the "numbers game" for me, but Attributes just determine where I start and what I'm good at physically...they don't define the roleplaying side for me, they just say what I'm most adept at.

They determine my interaction with the skill system, which is where the RPG elements truly shine, you see what I mean?


Edit: if we operate within the bounds of your definition, it's right, but it'd be a [censored] game and it wouldn't sell well and it wouldn't be fun and, most importantly, it wouldn't fit in with the other Elder Scrolls games.

Who cares if, on paper, it's an RPG if it doesn't feel like what we've come to enjoy and expect?

You're right, it won't be a good RPG. It'll be boring as hell. But it would still be an RPG.

Again, you can have an RPG without choices (not a good one), but you cannot have an RPG without stats working in the background.

I don't think you can prove him wrong with that argument.

Firstly, "you're playing yourself" part. The game knows player's stats? I don't think so. There can be a preset character though. Secondly, if I cannot make choices of my own, I cannot say this character is mine. And playing myself, I would even value a roleplaying game by how good I can play myself! If a roleplaying game lets me play myself, a random guy on this 6 billion planet, that must be one hell of an RPG.

I can play some game with character customization and progression but all choice I can make is killing people then it is not roleplaying... So it is first freedom of choices in world and NPC interaction. Everything else is, like you said, improvements. (Simpler and without any colorization. )

Except, of course, that the Witcher had a number of stats and that the skill system was extremely coarse and highly interactive with the perks system rather than perks being put on top of a full skill system.

And you can have endless factions, choices and quests, and still just be telling a series of fairy tales without any actual defined role you're playing.

Agreed but there seems to be an assumption on some peoples part that more stats make for a better RPG which I think is wrong.
The best RPGs I've played, both PnP and CRPG had simple but flexible mechanics that were easy to understand and allowed the player to get into the game quickly, allowing them to concentrate on playing their character rather than number-crunching.

First and foremost, you're comparing apples and oranges. PnP works like a charm with simple but flexible mechanics because the players and the GM can handwave things at their heart's content. A cRPG is utterly incapable of handwaving. What's not in the game engine won't happen.

Second,. you're once more trying to propagate the claim that more stats is about numbercrunching. The opposite is true. The min-maxer loves games with few characteristics, because it's quite easy to find out the optimal combination. The one loving lots of stats is the one paying plenty of attention to what defines their character.

Here, have a http:///img110.imageshack.us/img110/3943/fishystickcf7.jpg






You both are basically define what makes a RPG great. Both stats and choices are what makes a RPG great. Without stats, there would be no sense of progress. You would always feel the same as when you started the game. Without choices, you wouldn't feel as though you have no say in the story. You would just be on a linear story and would feel like what you do doesn't matter.

Take JRPG's for example. They mainly focus on stats and the story is always the same no matter how may times you play it and it won't change no matter what you do.

Then take RPGs that emphasizes choice, such as Mass Effect. That series focuses on choice rather thatn stats (well Mass Effect 2 did). You never felt you're character get any stronger, just upgrades that made you slightly stronger.

Both these elements are what make a RPG great, and in order for Skyrim to be GOTY, beth needs a way to balance these.

You're wrong, sorry.

I'll use the same example I used in a previous discussion about this:

Your character is in an empty, featureless room. There are no choices to be made, and no NPCs to interact with... yet, you are still playing that character's role. That character has their own skills and abilities which are determined by stats. Suddenly, the game tells you to jump up and down on the spot in order to progress further. This isn't your choice, the game is telling you to do something. How high you can jump and for how long is determined by stats... and gradually you find that the more you jump up and down on the spot, the better your character becomes at it.

Technically, that would be an RPG. An incredibly boring RPG, but an RPG nonetheless.

Once again, you can have an RPG without choices, without NPC interaction (or NPCs at all), and without freedom. You cannot however have an RPG without stats.

The games with lots of stats like NWN and NWN2 are the ones where people spends ages fine-tuning their character to get that extra bit of power. I've done it myself. Its enjoyable enough but its not RPing.

Stats serve to define your character's interaction with the world. Without the world, without those interactions, the stats are of themselves completely worthless. And regardless of the definition, or lack of one, of an rpg, TES is as much about the world as the character. Personal opinion of course, but to me less stats and a missing armour slot don't matter at all if I feel whatever there is in the way of stats is enough to define a character as distinct from any other character. The world being richer though, that means a hell of a lot to me, it's not all about fighting.

It's not a case of more stats = a better RPG. It's a case of more sophisticated and complex character progression makes a better RPG. The thing is, you need stats for character progression.

More choice also makes a better RPG - whether it's more skills to choose from, more items, etc. To include more skills though, is to include more stats.

Regarding number-crunching - as i've said - the stats can all be in the background... it doesn't matter. As long as they're there.


Of course the world is just as important - it's an open-world RPG after all.

The thing people keep getting confused though, is which elements relate to the open-world side of things, and which ones relate strictly to the RPG aspect. Obviously the two are entwined and often benefit each other... but still, saying something like 'TES is the best RPG experience ever because it has an open world with lots of freedom'' or 'Skyrim will be the best RPG yet because it has great AI and a realistic economy' is nonsense. Those things relate more to the gameworld, and are not vital or defining features of RPGs as a whole.

Well yes, games requires some kind of numerical value to describe their characters, I never argued against that.

That doesn't mean that if you cannot change them directly, it's less of an RPG. Heck attributes are like this too, they're numbers you change directly, to change other numbers indirectly.

What?
There are 4 attributes in Witcher 2,
Damage
Armor
Vitality/Health
Vigor/mana
(there were around two more in 1, like parry and dodge)

You changed these by picking talents, which worked nearly the exact same way as perks and wielding different equipment.

Don't know how the inclusion of the numerical skills in Skyrim would make that inferior...

Did you? I failed to notice this LOL.



You have not demonstrated how that can possibly be an RPG.

I think you have been playing this game too long: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/495903



I've played RPGs when traveling with friends without using any stats or dice rolls.

What you need is
1. character or characters
2. choosing their own actions
3. game master playing the parts of all the NPCs

Why is STR, INT, WIS, etc., so important to track with a number, compared to, say, Attractiveness, Paranoia, Anger Management, Friendliness, Curtness, Creativity, etc.?

Just as you can role-play a character who has a mean streak, or a hunchback, you can role-play a character who is strong, or smart, or foolish. Numbers are not necessary. In fact, even when playing pen-and-paper RPGs with stats, there are all sorts of variations of which stats to track. Are any of these specific stats more essential than others?


Precisely, yes, I agree with this.


Absolutely, but this does not require any numbers or tracking of stats. What is required is that the player comes up with a character, in other words an imaginary person or creature e.g., "I'm a dim-witted, hunchback dwarf who had a traumatic childhood, etc." The description of the character can be tremendously detailed or light on details.


you can "progress" in an RPG, whether it is a pen-and-paper or videogame RPG, by acquiring items, gold, solving a mystery, gaining entrance to an exclusive organization, gaining special abilities, gaining the respect, fear or admiration of NPCs, achieving goals that you as the player decide you want to pursue, etc., without increasing in level at all.


If by "stats" you mean attributes, such as strength, intelligence, health, magicka, etc., then no, these are not essential to progress in a video game

If by "stats" you mean every possible mechanic that tracks what your character is doing, then yes, if "stats" includes even the most minute PC data such as:

• how much gold you possess
  
• which items you possess
  
• whether you have romanced the barmaid you are trying to romance
  
• whether you have been admitted to the College of Winterhold
  
• whether you have achieved the second rank in the College of Winterhold
  
• whether you have found item X that you are looking for
  
• whether you found the tame wolf that you want as your pet
  
• whether you found Umbra
  
• whether you have purchased a house
  
• whether you managed to escape from prison

depends on your definition of "stats" - you need to be able to progress, but it is not set in stone that this progression must be in the form of leveling up your health, etc.



referring strictly to videogames, and not pen-and-paper games:

what is conventionally considered "Stats" (i.e., attributes, health, magicka, character level) - not essential

some form of data about the player character, even something as simple as quests completed, inventory items - essential

Choices - absolutely essential, otherwise it is not a role playing game. in order to be able to play a "role" you must be able to choose which actions fit that "role"




We must agree that some video games have a deeper RPG aspect than others, correct?

Any elements that add to the layers of things you can choose to do, greater complexity in the game world allowing you to play your "role" with greater freedom to do what you really think your character would do - these elements deepen that RPG aspect. Arbitrarily adding hundreds of attribute related stats to a game does not necessarily deepen this RPG aspect.