MIND = BLOWN

Can I sig this haha

A discussion about RPG vs RPG THIS IS MADNESS !!



I pick the one with Morrowind.

This.

I was going to add something about why this, but it pretty much degenerated into incoherent ranting at Alois Hammer. Suffice it to say, I really hate the attitude that the player should be an outside observer. Interaction is the heart and soul of gaming.

Sooooo, can anyone point out a video game rpg that isn't a bit of both? Especially an RPG that doesn't have a degree of Rpg? In PnP we call it metagaming, and no matter how hard you try it does happen. TES games, even Oblivion, HAVE made an effort to make the skills and abilities of your created character important to that character's capabilities. So they messed up with a couple of minigames, they figured it out, more or less fixed it in the new Fallout games. Then you'll complain that the Fallout games required you to aim yourself, but really there were no complicated tactics to Fallout as a shooter, you stood in one spot, put the cursor over the enemy, and clicked. How is that different from selecting an enemy from overhead and clicking on them, then waiting for a bunch of people to cycle through animations?

Whatever, I hate this damned argument and I'm probably not the best person to get into it since I play and absolutely love both kinds, plus some regular PnP.

Different kinds of play, trying to do different things, don't like it? Tough [censored], find something you do enjoy.

Oh great he insulted the top platformer of all time portraying as an RPG elitist... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4-WOVcZNWw

The oldest attempts to make a computer RPG probably count. Six non-entity party members defined entirely by the player, no real attempt to provide any sort of plot, just a straight up "try to get your numbers higher than the other guy's numbers" game (and I use the term very loosely; it's more like math porm)

I tend to be more of a Rpg guy myself.

As much as I enjoy the ability to work in imagination, and the increase in strategy that comes with RPGs, I feel as if they are a little too restrictive at times given their over reliance on rulesets. And I do understand that rules are kind of necessary, in order to avoid RPGs from devolving into nonsense, however, there are a little too many restrictions to take into account for someone such as myself who does not have nearly as much time to play games as he used to. This was part of what drove me away from things like Dungeons & Dragons and (although obviously not an RPG) the card game Magic: The Gathering. In both cases, things started to change a lot and get too restrictive in their core rulesets to the point that I really only enjoyed playing them with people who reverted back to earlier rules, which severely limited my play. It seems as if many of these systems started to get away from freeform development and instead either homogenized the different experiences, or simply made it impossible to enjoy unless you developed your character in a very specific fashion. I feel as if most modern RPGs are more or less along this same vein, which is why outside of some of the older Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, I generally avoid them. Of course, if any newer RPGs are out there that have a relatively limited amount of stats to be concerned with, and aren't entirely reliant on intense research of rulebooks, stat development, etc. then I'd gladly give them a try.

Rpgs are a lot more enjoyable to me lately, and generally have been ever since Blizzard came out with the Diablo games about a decade ago. They are much more conducive to shorter play times, which is great since I generally end up playing games for a maximum of about an hour each sitting. I enjoy that there is some sense of accomplishment regardless of how much time you put in, and that many of these games also have large amounts of content to last for a long time. The immersion factor certainly helps a lot too, since I've always been a huge fan of adventure and fantasy, and these elements tend to come through much greater in games focused around exploration rather than stat development. These experiences just prove much more enjoyable to me lately, even if they occasionally limit the freedom of choice available within RPGs. Although, to be honest, at the current stage in my life, I'd much rather be limited to a beautifully rendered HD environment than given the choice to imagine whatever I want but not truly be able to see it. The technology has developed to the point that in-game environments are suitable enough for extended exploration.

Of course, a balance is always best. I would prefer for stats to continue to play a role. One of my few complaints about Mass Effect 2 (which got a lot correct, in my opinion) is that stats basically played no role whatsoever. As I stated earlier, I don't want stats to be too restrictive, since that would result in a problem in which only one or two "builds" is viable (although this is much less of a problem in single player games than in MMOs where the player community basically forces one build per class). However, when stats are minimized, or even removed, then the game just devolves into a shooter/brawler, and then you end up with only one "build" to choose from.

Oblivion got a lot right in terms of this balance, although it wasn't perfect. The combat was clearly oriented around active play rather than dice rolls (a good change, in my opinion, although I understand the arguments against it) but the stats still played a role in terms of damage, abilities, and general character traits. It is being addressed, but I still think that the major issues in regards to the role-playing in that game were as follows: everything leveled along with you, resulting in a combat system in which there were no real advantages or disadvantages to level or abilities; and you also have the issue of armor being widely available thanks to bandits, which removes the appeal of trying to get harder armor.

Long post over.

Actually, I think "Good RPG" is a false notion of goodness for bad game design.

"Melted your brain enought"

Whether or not it was the original intent of the post, I am considering this failed sarcasm.

jkruse and python have both made good points. Thank you. And they even acknowledge the strengths of both types of games. Thank you again for keeping open minds.

Before TES, I played mostly action-adventure games(Zelda and similar) Then I found Morrowind. At the time Morrowind was the greatest game ever(it still is to an extent) Now after playing Oblivion it's kinda hard for me to go back to 100% dice rolling of Morrowind. I like the action elements of Oblivion so much more(while there was much to be improved upon it was all in the right direction) Now while I don't enjoy dice rolling RPG, I like being able to determine who and what my character is. I just don't like a computer deciding whether I can perform a certain action though(sword swinging, lock picking, etc) I like to place myself and skills that I may have into the role of the character and not be limited by what the dice roll outcome is(and that's the immersion aspect) That's why I welcome a minor transition to Rpg. As long as we don't lose the ability to be who and what we want.

So right in the middle is great for me. And that's where we should be with Skyrim.

I don't know... for me, having a well-defined rule system that makes some kind of sense HELPS with immersion. I don't find it believable that a character just out of jail, with no lockpick experience, should be able to pick a 'very hard' lock. Or fight well with a sword. Just because I can move my mouse around my desk doesn't convince me that all characters should be ace swordfighters.

Is it really too difficult to immerse yourself in a character just because some things depend on character skills and not button mashing? It takes a tiny bit of imagination to make that leap, true, but nothing too drastic. And it means that, once you have made the effort to immerse yourself in the life of your character, the game becomes an interesting struggle with the strengths and limitations of that character.

Also... come on, how many of you who ace the lockpicking minigame out there could actually pick a lock in real life? So, if you want, call it 'player skill'. But it's player skill at a completely arbitrary (and laughably simple after a few goes) minigame.

I think most people like to immerse themselves in large-scale, story-heavy RPGs (new-school or old-school).

The real split is between those who want to immerse themselves in a game-like world where your character can do what he wants, when he wants, as long as you can learn a few simple minigames... and those who want to immerse themselves in a world that can feel real at a deeper level, with systems that make some kind of sense with respect to the world at large and your character's role in it, and where the identity you build for yourself actually matters in the GAME, not just in your head.

I'm not saying skills should be done away with and that's for the very reason you say. At least Oblivion had the option to do it purely skill based with the auto-pick. And if a player chooses to go at things manually, the Lockpicking skill still helps out by making certain locks easier to pick or with the perks of not having a tumbler fall down. I personally think the lock picking minigame was a sweet spot. There were times where I did it and there were times when i auto-picked. Until I got the Skeleton Key, then it was just mash auto-pick until i unlocked it haha

Also, an interesting thing with Rpg's is that it still is possible to role-play as other characters, as others have mentioned. I do it too. However, it is at a somewhat reduced level but the option is still there

Sure.

Ah, I had forgot about the auto-pick, that improves matters a lot. I just started playing Oblivion again these last couple of weeks, have only broken about five lockpicks so far, and I was getting a bit angry with the triviality of the whole thing.

As for 'sweet spot', I agree that the lockpicking minigame could have been worse - it could have been the PERSUASION minigame (**shudder**).

I think a 'sweet spot' is the Fallout 3 lockpicking - if you didn't have the skill, you couldn't make the attempt at all.

I agree to some extent with your second comment - I have had a lot of fun with games like Mass Effect that have a watered-down skill/rules system, but put a lot of focus on storytelling. For me, the number one sign of a good role-playing game (old-school or new-school) is that it tells a good story built around your character, and that the choices made effect the story. Rules and skillsets are, in a sense, less important.

But a good set of skills and systems gives the game world an internal logic, and gives consequences to the choices you make in developing your character. I feel that this makes good (and multithreaded) storytelling a lot easier to pull off... and adds greatly to immersion.

The word 'immersion' seems to mean a lot of different things to different people, though, so don't read too much into this...

I can understand (at a conceptual level at least) those that say that it's immersion breaking to be limited by your character's skills. I just think that having meaningless skills and characters that are good at everything, simply because the player knows how to play the minigames, gives a much more jarring sense of unreality.

The problem with Oblivion's lockpicking system, which was quite simple, is that once you figured the mini game out and get good at it you could unlock locks of any difficulty with a skill level of 5. I don't mind interactivity. It's nice. But when an action is supposed to be linked to one of your character's skills, that skill needs to actually matter to some degree. I shouldn't be able to unlock a high level lock with my security skill of 5 just because I am good at the mini game.

The persuasion mini game is even worse at that.

Of course, but you need a good GM, as well as active imagination. If you are a person who imagine only by taking the words, instead of actively go into the words and understand the meanings behind, you won't be able to immerse.

That's WotC's doing with their M:TG game designing mindset. Those people aren't making RPGs with RPG models but with TCG design concept.

The older versions actually have far less ruleset to restrict you. AD&D has only 6 abilities, proficiency is optional, all other books are OPTIONS. Your DM decide what ability to use when it came to happen. SAGA rule system barely had any rules but set the difficulty to cast magic. Vampire:The Masquerade always reminds you story comes first.

Now here's a question for you. A player who cannot think as bright as the other player, and played a knowledgable character, while the other player with brighter mind played a combat specialist. If teh combat specialist's actions cannot be binded by this stupid brain, then the less than bright player would not be able to have fun if he could not roll dice to check if he could gain any hints from the GM. RPGs have always been about having fun together, not having only your own fun, which is what CRPGs or CRpgs whatever are about.

Thank you, twice over.

Another example with regard to "immersion" would be the whole issue of TES children- some say it screws up immersion for there to be no children at all, while it mangles my own immersion more for there to be hordes of invulnerable children around. I can more easily rationalize why the children aren't seen, and come up with multiple ways for them to remain hidden, than I can rationalize why the little anklebyters are all over the place yet somehow never seem to get so much as a scratch even if a large fireball goes off in their immediate vicinity.

I am old school AD&D guy.
I pick the RPG one.
However, I still really get into as if I am the character, and staying in the role of the character. But yeah, I like the stats and die rolls to see if the character is successful or not.

I strongly agree, though I don't think a good story is an intrinsic of an RPG in particular, so much as an intrinsic of any style of adventure or story-telling game.

All IMHO:
The difference in opinion about RPG vs Rpg is not in the concept of role, but the preference for Simulation vs Arcade games. I liked both Mass Effect games, and will definitely be buying the 3rd one, but to me they weren't RPGs. They were arcade-like adventure games with borrowed FPS-lite and RPG-extra-extra-lite characteristics. Minigames are, almost by definition, immersion-breaking (though lock-picking in Bethesda games isn't bad). Removing attributes, skills, and other stats (on characters, NPCs, and items) actually reduces immersion, and limits strategy as well, which svcks a significant portion of fun out of an RPG. (Assuming that the attributes and skills are well-implemented.) To me realistic physics and (relatively) realistic stats are complementary and related features. Turning an RPG into an Arcade game feels like using cheat codes to get through a game rather than actually experiencing it. YMMV, of course.

That's not to say that arcade or arcade-influenced games aren't fun, or great games. It's just that there are few "real" RPGs that are made, and I'd like to occasionally get my RPG fix. I can get my arcade/FPS/adventure fixes from hundreds of other available titles. TES:Call of Duty or TES:Donkey Kong don't make any more sense to me than TES:Farmville.

I don't see why these should be separate things. I've always done both things in any RPG I've played, and I'll be damned if I stop now. Both Mass Effect and our weekly D&D sessions are equal in my eyes.

Am I the only person in the world who couldn't get the hang of that damned minigame? I ended up taking Alteration for almost every character for the sole reason that I couldn't stand hearing "dink dink dink crack" any more.

Yes, you are. I've just started playing Oblivion (Nehrim, actually, a mod) again this week after 2 years, and I can open any lock with one try. Stupid minigame.

The pin makes a sligtly different sound when it can be locked, once you train your ear to hear that (easy with headphones) you rarely break a lockpick after that. In other words :swear:

Though i'm not a fan of the arbitrary skill limits of Fallout 3 either.