There needs to be a way for thief's to "catch wind" of valuable items, and who has them. Instead of randomly searching through towns for items (which then have to basically be placed in the open), there should be some operations that the player knows about on the street, from other sources. One might overhear rumors of very special loot being owned by such and such wealthy businessman who lives across town, etc... and now their quest journal updates with the "rumor" ...

That particular rumored item might or might not be there. But if the item is there, it should be specially hidden behind a painting, or in a hidden door inside a drawer. So that extra and different searching means are needed to discover it. Maybe a mini-game, or a skill check, I'm not sure. But that way, really cool things could be hidden that require that extra something beyond just going into someone's home and taking the item off their desk. Why not some kind of old-fashioned safe in the wall? Why not a loose floorboard, under which is a cubby hole where all the stuff is stashed? Why not a hidden door, behind which is there small library of important things, stashed away? That you actually have to go in and FIND, search for, uncover, the old fashioned way.

I think the old system is pretty broken. You go in, see an item and it has a red hand if you try to grab it, indicating that it would be stealing. But thieves take it anyway, and they aren't acting any more theiflike to do that. It's what anyone who went into the house can do. Everyone is a thief is they want to be. So what makes a thief any more special to play? For every chest that requires a lock, there is a spell for mages that can break it, too. Theives are a joke. They need to have a real challenge! Where is the distraction? Where is dressing in disguises to gain entrance to a secure location? Where are the "bank jobs" ... and various other kinds of theiving that goes on, requiring specialized skills?

I think there needs to be a lot of new ways to gain information about "jobs" ... or "marks" ... including some old fashion "con jobs" that require acting, roleplaying, and disguise (think TV's "Alias") ... and they can borrow the acting skill from the Bard class in Skyrim (there are classes for NPC's just not for the player, so don't get sidetracked about "no classes" because the Devs need classes to assign to their NPC's quickly) meaning there indeed should be an Acting Skill to help with Disguise, etc...

And part of the ways people can gain new information should be from RUMOURS. Rumors on the street. Rumors in the bar. A little help from the guy that tends the rich man's lawn, for a price ... Rumors in jail, from other inmates who know about things on the outside but whose sentence is too long, so they tell you in the hopes you'll cut them in after the fact ... will you, or will you keep it all? hahahaha. Rumors from the dock workers bringing in expensive cargo from the ports. Rumors from people talking on the street in hushed town, requiring you to SNEAK behind them to be able to hear the conversation. If you fail, they catch you and walk away. But if you succeed, they keep talking, revealing the details that then go into your Quest Journal.

In this way, the thief could scraqe information from his environment, instead of having to just JOIN GUILDS and such, where it makes little sense for one theif (who wants to get money) would tell you of a job to go do where you get to keep all of it when THEY could just as easily go steal it instead. Why would theives share knowledge of jobs? The only thing they should be sharing is resources: fake documentation, disguise tools, people to erase your mistakes (Erasers), people to act as other people for the purposes of selling illusions (other con men help each other with their cons) and stuff like that. A thief should be able to find more information in the world, on his own, not by being hand-given quests from some one main source. In this way, he can actually be more valuable to his Guild, that he can do the job on his own, rather than always coming to them for the leftovers that they don't have the time to do.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks.

this was already confirmed in GI's Feb. issue. the player will over hear information/conversations between NPCs that will automatically update your quest journal. All without having to even interact with the NPCs

Rich people should have fat lewt. I hated in Oblivion when you would break into someones house and find nothing but junk in their containers.

I found that a compelling read, cheers.

Id settle for non sentient shop keepers that let me sell my ill gotten loot.

Ya but it makes some sense that you wouldn't be able to sell stolen goods as they are bound to get reported stolen.

Thus I propose this. Once you steal something it has a status, kind of like the red circle in Oblivion but yellow, that represents it being stolen but not reported. While it has this status you can sell it to anyone, after a certain period of time though it will be reported and then can only be sold to a fence. Obviously getting caught steeling results in it receiving reported status to begin with.

I'd say a lot of the thieves guild should be trafficking in information. The noble got his wife's maidservant pregnant and the maid got thrown out? She tells the thieves guild where the valuables are and gets a cut of the profit.

Great post, I never really focus on being a thief as there just isn't enough they excel at. Instead I've just had a character now and then that has theiving as a side focus...but in the character creation and whatnot theives have always been a large part as they have in the guilds, so I agree. Top level mages get exclusive access to killer magic. Top level warriors have elite combat stills. Top level thieves...can open chests and doors that spells and skeleton keys already open and sneak through places that camelon enchanted items already make laughingly easy.

I agree the theif class needs some major love and your ideas would add a ton to the class. The concept of getting to overhear gossip about valuable items in town is a great idea. There are a dozen ways that could be implemented, such as:

- overhearing two cloaked individuals speaking in the back of a seedy bar
- hearing a boy boasting of his father's riches after school to other kids
- a drunk man boasting in the tavern of some great inheritance, purchase, or find that he's recently had.
- a merchant mentioning Mr. X tried to sell me some armor of immense value but I didn't have enough coin on had to make the purchase.
- a non-aggro bandit on the road lamenting a very promising mark (with some unique characteristic) that happened past while the bandit was relieving himself.
- seeing a boat being unloaded in the harbor and a noble directing dock workers to be careful as this is incredibly valuable cargo

These are of course tips any class could use, though perhaps thieves might have a perk that makes them better listeners so these scripts occur more or a perk that makes you better at figuring out just who is being discussed or what valuables they have stashed. Additionally, there could be a % chance that these gossip lines are ever heard, but certain ones could be much more likely if the character that provides them doesn't know that you are around (thus quietly sitting *sneaking* in the back of a bar or on a street corner might result in people not seeing you and speaking of things better only discussed behind closed doors). But this plus the mentioned inclusion of valuables being hidden and/or guarded would make thieves several times better.

Using such a system would be great for immersion. Additionally it would simply make the game more enjoyable as I always start a little OCD and open ever container "just in case" then after 500 containers of drab brown cloaks, bowls, or other useless crud I stop looking in almost any containers in homes. This way I can not need to open 1000's of containers but still have a chance at the best loot if I'm attentive to NPCs words and skilled in the right ways.

Wow, this is what I'm talking about when I say I love these forums and am proud to be a member here. A guy reads your idea and instead of shooting it down comes back with even more additions to your concept and works with you to imagine how much fun it could be. Thanks a lot, man! These are great suggestions.

I also like what Edmunt said:

There would be time enough for the thief who's just stolen something valuable to run back to his guild, who would help him meet with a fence that they arrange to help with its sale. Then you're using your Guild for HELP, which is essentially what Guilds are for, not as job dispensers. Almost all of the Con Men turn to thier Guilds for help, but they find the jobs "the marks" on their own or by having someone who scraqes (the Facebook meaning: to steal information from a source against their will or without their knowledge) the community for information. In fact, your value to the Guild at the early levels might just BE, and only BE, scraping information from the town and passing it up to more skilled thieves in the Guild.

Imagine: you're first level. You've joined the Guild. What do they want you to do? Prove yourself. "Go and get some valuable information. We don't care where it comes from, we only care that it pans out, that it provides valuable intel leading to some real treasure we can get our hands on." So, using some of my ideas above, and Smber2c's ideas as well, the low-level player sneaks into a bar where no one notices him, sits down in the shadows, and listens. Pretty soon he overhears two guys whispering about something. So he has to sneak a bit closer. If he's successful, he gets to hear their conversation, leading to a potential mark or treasure to be lifted later. If he fails, they get spooked and change the subject, talking normally about the weather or some such thing. The thief then has to move on to some other location and try again.

Every situation where two or three people are talking in low tones could be a chance for the thief character to use his Sneak skill to get close enough to hear. Or maybe the thief could use some magic to augment their hearing, allowing them to hear whispering from further away so as not to spook the marks.

This idea is so compelling to me right now in my mind that if they implemented all of this thread's suggestions, then for the first time in my RPG history, I would actually play a thief. I'm usually prone to magic users, but my favorite TV shows on TV are shows about spies and thieves, so shows like Alias, Nikita (the new one 2010/11), and that British show Hu$tle... I don't know how much work it would be to change Skyrim from where it is along now to add these changes, maybe it's too late, but damn ... what a way to make a class that's barely playable into something amazing. Wish it could happen.

Yeah it was confirmed.

So getting your Quest Journal to update from rumors is already in? That's cool.

Now I'm just hoping for confirmation of the rest ... hahahaha! Can't you just imagine all the "Spy" mods that would come out with a system like this for thieves? I might, in a case like that, try to create one MYSELF!!

Same here! I love this idea great thread man. Hopefully something like this is in the game.

Climbing. You know, where you can enter a second-story window? That would be awesome, too. Scurry up the drainpipe ... make your escape via the rooftops ... yeah, that would be fun.

Definitely like the idea. I think sneaking around should prompt NPCs to talk about certain "hidden" valuables that thieves can overhear while hidden. The entire point of the thief class is to make added money so that you can offset inferior fighting skills with superior loot. TES has never really achieved this yet.