Hello, I've noticed that as time went by after release, many of the older forumers that have been around for a while, those of us who remember Morrowind and beyond, have displayed displeasure with the newest release in the TES series, Skyrim. I've also noticed that when attempting to voice our displeasure's, our quibbles, our complaints we are shot down by the newer members of the forum that have started to flood the forum since the release of TES. Most often valid complaints are buried under mounds of rabid Beth fans who don't know the glory of the older games and how they were true RPGs, not Action RPGs. It is not their fault of course, but their fandom prevents us from having any real discussion. Here I hope that we can discuss what we don't like about the game and how it can be fixed in future itinerations. I also hope we can discuss the future as a whole and where we see it going.

I would really appreciate it if those who have no complaints with Skyrim to please stay out of this conversation unless they have something constructive to say.

Thank you, and please discuss!

If we define "true RPG" as a game which is character-skill-based rather than player-skill-based, this is not strictly true. All of the Elder Scrolls series have been, to a greater or lesser degree, action/RPG hybrids.

I still haven't even played Skyrim yet. I'm just not that anxious to. It just looks really... hollow to me. Any of my complaints though are really nothing new from what we've already heard time and time again... I hate that they even further combined the armor... I hate that it just doesn't seem to resemble the Skyrim that was described to us in other games... the variety of creatures is once again very limited.. there's hardly any daedra... no combat in water I hear too... And to go even further back, I still miss spears, separate pauldrons, open cities, levitation spells, and teleportation.

Hey Pseron... Good to see you. We're both getting close to the decade mark... it's weird.

Frankly,I couldn't care less for this call to return to Original Purity.
What TES needs is things like locational damage, deeper storytelling, wider sparser gameworld and so forth.
In fact, Ditch the RPG tag altogether if that's preventing TES from moving forward.
I want a deeper experience, not necessarily a canonical RPG experience.

I have bought Skyrim yesterday and played it a few hours already.

Yes, it is fun to play and looks pretty cool.

But while it undeniably has that 'Elder Scrolls feel' to it, it is a lot less than in earlier installments. I never thought that I would say this but Skyrim makes me see how good Oblivion actually was.

But what has really 'killed' the series for me over the last few years is the interface. Whenever I am playing Morrowind I am juggling enchantments and different weapons around with the click of button and I can see all important screens at once.

Then came Oblivion which interface was a lot worse but still looked like an Elder Scrolls game (with hotkeys.)

But now we have Skyrim which interface clearly resembles that of an action game and is barely playable. You will get used to it but it stays annoying.


Did you actually play the older ones?

What? You want a custom pointless flame removed forum where you're safe from the opinions of those who disagree with you and are given the illusion of being right? What about the opinions of the Older fans of the series who don't like your alleged "Fixes", because we find Skyrim delivers what we want far more than Morrowind and Daggerfall did?

Sorry, as a fan since Arena, I have to say you're off-the-mark here. Not all of the "Older fans of the series" believe that Skyrim is inferior to Morrowind - That's like trying to say Savage Worlds is objectively inferior to Dungeons & Dragons is objectively inferior to Rolemaster.

TES has been Action-RPG since even then, with the use of the right-click-and-swing-mouse-to-attack mechanic trying to engage player skill more than character skill (Heh, I remember frantically killing skeletons with a hammer in Daggerfall, because my Blunt skill was low. It was chaotic and fun!). I see Morrowind as a step backward in the series in many respects, with dumbed-down combat (Fixed in Oblivion, fortunately, and hasn't slumped since), a static world (Again fixed in Oblivion, and taken beyond), limited quests (Fixed in Skyrim, finally), pre-determined loot, tiny dungeons, small world, and bland, wierd-for-the-sake-of-wierd monsters and environments. And Cliffracers.

I could go into detail about all of the things I wished were back from past Elder Scrolls games, and talk about what I think an RPG should be, but at the end of the day I mostly just don't see the point anymore. All I want to do is enjoy a game, and for the most part Skyrim is a game that I do enjoy.

Though if there's anything that I feel is truly worth complaining it about it's most definitely the fact that with the controls and interfaces in the game they, for whatever reason, decided to go with looks rather than functionality.

For me the map is useless (what is a map if I can't even see the roads?), the "journal" is useless most of the time it doesn't even tell me anything about the quests, it only seems to be there so I can turn the quest arrow on and off, the inventory is horribly inefficient and I don't think I really need to go into detail about that one.

Your complaint about the Journal's valid - however, the rest of the interface is great on a dual-anologue controller.

Who needs roads?

So you prefer bland randomized stuff to handmade, unique stuff? You cannot seriously mean that exploring Oblivion's wilderness was thrilling for any reason besides its graphics.

But Morrowind is indeed the only game to use such a combat system, which I prefer but cannot be called TES.

The controls were made with controllers in mind indeed, but my main point was just about how inefficient everything is rather than the controls (PC has some problems with controls, but it's mostly fine).

The inventory is only sorted alphabetically (a step down from Oblivions improvement over Morrowind causing more scrolling and searching than should be necessary), the list of catagories starts half of the way down the screen making it so you have to scroll when they would've all fit anyways (which I just do not see the point in what-so-ever), you can't see any information about your items unless you have them selected, there is no sorting in containers, you cant see your character making it more difficult to find out what you have equiped. I know there is more, though I don't remember as I've already been using a UI mod that makes it about as perfect as a proper inventory can get.

I can agree with most of what you're saying, but while Morrowind's combat wasn't as good as the games that followed, I don't think it was a step backward from Daggerfall. And the pre-determined loot is one of the things Morrowind did right that I still miss about that game. I can't tell you how many times I didn't give a damn in Oblivion when I saw a Daedric Shortsword of Burning or whatever for the hundredth time, but when I found things like Eleidon's Ward in Morrowind, it was such a thrilling and exciting event. Random loot is great in small doses, but it shouldn't replace hand-placed artifacts.

Agreed. I saw http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4929 and said "wow! That looks great!" And then I proceeded to not download it. Because who needs roads? It's more fun to not have roads and to be required to find my own way. Since this is supposedly the thread for preferring the old games and complaining about the modern one, then it's relevant to point out that Morrowind's map didn't have roads, and, to a further extent, didn't even have cities or towns or anything until you actually discovered them yourself.


I'd also like to say that a "true RPG" is not something with attributes and skills and all of these arbitrary gameplay mechanics. A true RPG is a game designed for roleplaying, plain and simple. Somewhere along the line, people seem to have forgotten that.

That said, I'll just say I've played all the previous games in the series and have been a TES fan for 10 years and I think Skyrim is one of the best. So I'll take my leave of this thread since I doubt I'm welcome here for such a claim.

First of all I think Skyrim's map is terrible but that might be up to debate. It still seems better than that of Vanilla Oblivion.
Second, while I have not tried using the interface with a controller I should not need to either. I am playing on a pc and while I understand that they might value their precious console sales more Bethesda better gives use some serious tools to fix it. What I do not get is why they would not at least give us hotkeys?

The journal is as said before extremely lame. But that has been going downhill for a long time now.

Frankly, anyone saying how great the interface is should try playing with a keyboard and mouse and give me your thoughts. If you still think it is so great then I will stop complaining.

And no, spending 50 bucks on a controller is not a valid alternative.

The real reason I like Morrowind the best is the interface. All screens in one place makes it really, really handy and easy to do what you need to do.

But then it went the console way and it became annoying. I am pretty sure that if Bethesda made two different interfaces for each game a lot of complaints would go away.

Well you definately won't find me saying that every singe feature in Morrowind was perfect, so I don't see the point in bringing it up as far as the map goes.

My ideal map would look like an actual hand drawn map, that had no player arrow or quest arrows on it, but would still add places/locations as you found them. But hey, that's just my opinion.

There was a set of "hand-drawn" maps available in Morrowind, sold at several of the bookstores, and a few of the general merchants had at least one of them for sale. There was an overview of the island of Vvardenfell within Morrowind province, with a detailed description of each of the geographic regions and political factions on it, and a more detailed map available for each of the cities on the island. The island overview map showed a few basic features, the main roads, and a rough idea of where the prominent towns were. There was even one of the Empire, if I recall, showing the various provinces, with a description of each. If your Mercantile skill and Personality were "reasonable", they cost about 2-5 Septims each.

Your menu map started out as essentially an empty blob, but filled in with details as you explored it, or were "informed" of their general locations. You still had to go there and sometimes hunt around to find the actual site, though. Rather than have an NPC say "Here, let me mark that on your map", the later games just added a compass arrow and allowed you to simply FT there. Morrowind required you to THINK about how to get there: take a boat from the present town to another town with a silt strider caravan, and then take the silt strider to the closest town to the site (or pay a Guild Guide to teleport you to the MG branch there), and walk the last mile or two. The map, journal, dialog directions, and quest designs were all geared to having you explore, rather than click a button to get into the next fight as soon as possible. Granted, some quest directions were awkward (or even wrong), but I'd rather have that than be "spoon fed" everything, and then be pitted against adversaries that are blatantly and boringly "adjusted for my level".

Yes, I do like the unpredictably random loot to handmade, predictable gear.

Exploring Oblivion's wilderness WAS more thrilling than exploring Morrowind's wastelands - I kept stumbling over stuff I could come back to when I had more time, and mapping out the Nibenay Basin, and Jerral and Valus Mountains were extremely fun.

No thread is safe from Scow's anti-Morrowind tirades.

Nah, it is cool. It is interesting because he has played TES from the beginning and gives clear reasons.

It is more that many people are unhappy because Skyrims strays even farther away from the 'ideal' Morrowind.
Other people on the other hand may admire it for that.

ITT: Hating on Oblivion and Skyrim for shallow reasons that in some instances are provably false* is cool and sixy, but hating on Morrowind for any reason at all makes you a stupid really devoted fan.

*Fun fact, you still have to physically travel to a destination in both Oblivion and Skyrim before you can fast travel there. Fast travel is designed to make the return trip less of a slog, which as somebody who only has a couple hours a day to play video games most of the time, I really appreciate.

Sorry, I'll have to report you for insulting me, but to reply to your post this is so people may discuss safely without being attacked by people such as yourself.

Edit: Please I ask again that if you have no complaints to please not post here as you are derailing the thread. I will report any who intentionally derails the thread again. Thank you.

He didn't insult you, he insulted your thread. And he was right to do so. I find this thread completely ridiculous and a little offensive, as it implies explicitly states that Morrowind is objectively better than the newer entries and that if you disagree in any way, you're just a "rabid Bethesda fan" whose opinion isn't worth the bandwidth it took to post it. The entire concept of this thread is pretentious and elitist. Forums are intended for discussion, and you can't have a discussion without multiple viewpoints to be discussed.

Morrowind fans are in the overwhelming majority on this forum, if you have an opinion on Oblivion or Skyrim, you can post it in one of the four other threads on the first page about how Morrowind is a superior game.

And protip, somebody saying you're wrong isn't an insult. Just FYI

Fully agreed.
It's been a while since I read a post I 100% agree with.

Thanks for posting.
Will be paying close attention to your future posts.

While Saint Jiub explained my position pretty well - I'm also coming around here because on the off-chance a developer sees this thread, the Anti-Skyrim bias doesn't render all opinions in here irrelevant.

I don't want TES to try becoming a "True" RPG, and wish it to remain the awesome Open-world Action-RPG hybrid it's been since Day 1.

I cannot say I like every design decision made in Skyrim - While I was a bit too optimistic about the spell system, the removal of Spellmaking was a huge blow to the series - I hope it's back for the next game.

Likewise, I seriously miss the acrobatics skill. Contrary to what some people say, it's not a "passive" skill any more than Speech or Lockpicking. Athletics was a genuinely "Passive" skill because everyone always runs everywhere. However, Acrobatics - I didn't jump everywhere in Oblivion or Morrowind, despite always playing an Acrobat character - As an acrobat, I always had good reason to jump whenever I did. Oblivion did such a great job with Acrobatics, that I miss its complete removal from Skyrim - I fell in love with TES the moment my Khajiit Acrobat in ARENA vaulted across a two-square wide moat and stabbed a pair of goblins in the face upon landing.

I miss combat staves and other pole-arms - however, Morrowind didn't exactly do a good job with them. With the new Active Blocking system, they would have had a chance to shine as defensive/confounding weapon styles... Or maybe I just wish my female Khajiit character could be a pole-dance-battler

I miss Hand-to-Hand support - making fists considered a one-handed weapon in Skyrim would have made me absolutely ecstatic.

I miss the flexibility of Daggerfall's enchanting system - Even small gems could be used to house effects-on-demand. I had a crystal that went FREEM and zapped enemies with lightning.

Note - What I miss brought a more "Action" element to the RPG - Crazy airborne stunts, a new, non-number-based combat style, and custom spells being able to tweak a character to optimal performance.

However, I'm GLAD attributes and weapon degradation are gone, the Blade, Blunt, and Axes skills are now merged into One- and Two-handed weapons (Before, the games were "Long Blade or Lame") - Seriously, all the decent weapons in every TES game have been Long swords. In Morrowind - Best weapon? The flaming God-swords, Eltonbrand, and Chrysamere in Morrowind, and Umbra, Goldbrand, Shadowrend(?) and Dawn/Duskfang in Oblivion. I like the simplification of the skill systems, because the complexity is put back in with the perk systems.

Morrowind is, in my opinion ( so don't go all 'really devoted fan thinks he's right again' over me) a superior game.
Why?
Because it is far, far easier to simply do what you want to do without annoying interventions.
Huh?
In Morrowind you can just run around easily access all the information you need and generally let the stats to the talking for you. Because frankly I do not want such a game to test my reaction speed or whatnot. You get in a battle along the way? Easily dispose of them if you are strong enough or die but you will not get in a long stupid battle.
In addition Morrowind's visual style allows for a clear view of your environment and the dungeons therefore not requiring the compass. Thanks to the inclusion of the handy compass with arrow marker and the spell effects you can see the information you want and just move on.

Oblivion and Skyrim require you to scroll to lots of stuff to see the information you need. Battles are spun out and distracting. and so on...


This is one of the reasons why I prefer Morrowind. Because it lets me play the way I want too.

Luckily though MOST of the complaints about any of these three games can be solved with mods at least.

Ive changed my mind on what is considered an "action" rpg and a "true" rpg. It is completely subjective to the person making the argument. Those who care less about the roleplaying elements and more about the adventure and combat mechanics go in one direction. Those who love to read, enjoy lifelike characters and could care little for combat mechanics go in a different direction.

I think the idea of a "True" RPG and an "Action" RPG is bollox. There all roleplaying games which attempt sometimes work toward one type of play. By segregating them into these subcategories, people seem to get the tendency that they are completely different genres, when in fact, there are plenty of other games that fit these subcategorized definitions better.