Save game "cheating" and how to solve it

Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:50 pm

I would not have a problem with a game having NO saves what so ever if the game was bug free. I dont die in RPG games cause i know how to run. the first time i ran into a willowisp i didnt have a weapon that would effect it so i ran across half of Oblivion to get away from it. LOL It was loads of fun.

Getting stuck in a game because of glitches is a bummer. Im actually trying to learn to save more. I totally forget to and it bites me in the [censored] sometimes.

Ive been stuck in a chair, in crevases, jumped off the board by accident, gotten beat on by some dude in a rock ( man i couldnt figure out how the rock was slowly beating me to death ), i could go on. Thats when i fall back on game saves.

Keep it the way it is please. thank you.
User avatar
Taylah Haines
 
Posts: 3439
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:10 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:56 am

1. You say you don't want your hand held by being able to save whenver when playing, so you want a button that gets rid of that option to hold your hand instead?
2. I do have sympathy, I get what you're saying. But for the love of the gumdrops and icecream, think about what you're asking. You'll want it so you have the option at the beginning, so you'll never be able to change it as you go on thinking that will hold you to it. 100 hours later you're pissed off and driving yourself crazy because you can't save, and because of the auto save you're stuck at the bottom of a dragon filled cave with 1 health and no potions. Ya you can just wait so you're health comes back, but then what. On you're tenth try you actually kill all but one of the dragons with your sword and pure luck, but the last one gets you, forcing you back down to where you just were. The cheater in you smacks you in the face, going "nananana I told you so" all the way home.

See what I'm trying to say here? With the current system, this can still happen, but at least you had the option to save before the cave instead of autosaving at the bottom.

Hahaha, that was a funny description. Of course it would be extremely frustrating! But I like challenge, I like risk (with proper award) And it reflects life too. I don't always win in life. That's one reason why it's interesting.

Yes, I want a button that gets rid of saving anytime I want. I want to be able to start a hardcoe character, similar to those MMOs where you have perma death and other severe consequences to your actions.
User avatar
Umpyre Records
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:19 pm

Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:24 pm

the first time i ran into a willowisp i didnt have a weapon that would effect it so i ran across half of Oblivion to get away from it. LOL It was loads of fun.

That's what we're talking about. Your heart pumping when something strong and nasty is hunting you. So fun and memorable. Geez, I miss those rare moments.
User avatar
Kim Bradley
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:00 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:27 am

Really? That many people want the same way? It's so broken! It should save every 30 seconds or so in case of crashes, but the stuff readily available to the player should maybe be when you sleep or when you finish a quest, maybe have it only on sleep for hardcoe mode. Why would you complain about that?
User avatar
Greg Swan
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:49 am

Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:58 pm

All of this, including your definition of hardcoe, is quite subjective. I am not projecting my lack of will unto others- it is human nature to have finite willpower, though we all have different limits. Many of you are imagining an idealistic state, where we all have 100 willpower stats, which is certainly not the case.

To address your soldier anologue, yes, the Soldier who is forced into his mission will most likely view his actions as more "hardcoe" from his perspective (the perspective that matters, in this case), seeing as the soldier who willfully accepts his mission through choice views his mission as something which he can overcome. Don't see how you could miss that.


I disagree with your view on what is hardcoe then, It is futile to begin a quest you think you can't overcome, I don't see how this comes into your original suggestion because what you are suggesting isn't things getting tougher, but punishment for losing said challenge is greater. Now it can be argued that greater punishment, ups the challenge psychologically, but it surely isn't gonna up it so that you no longer think that you haven't got a chance of overcoming it.

May I propose a metagame challenge for you? You want to willfully have your choice taken away, while others like me unwillingly want our choice taken away, by your logic, this isn't very hardcoe of you, because you views are that you're gonna be okay with such a system, while people who are forced with this system against their will, are the only people who can truly be hardcoe. If you really want to be hardcoe, we should get unlimited saves against your will, because you being forced to play with the constant ability to save, is the only way you can truly be hardcoe.

The fact that you don't think you can resist constantly saving if you have the ability, that this is the scenario you think you can't overcome, means this is the only way you can truly be hardcoe. You will be the forced soldier, instead of the willful one.
User avatar
Alyesha Neufeld
 
Posts: 3421
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:45 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:02 pm

Hahaha, that was a funny description. Of course it would be extremely frustrating! But I like challenge, I like risk (with proper award) And it reflects life too. I don't always win in life. That's one reason why it's interesting.

Yes, I want a button that gets rid of saving anytime I want. I want to be able to start a hardcoe character, similar to those MMOs where you have perma death and other severe consequences to your actions.


Ha Ha.. MMO?. Thats D&D rules. if you die you dont get that character anymore. you dont get to create a character like that anymore. If the game were to be hard core then it should remember the dead character you created in a tomb stone. the next character you would create couldnt have the same name and would have to be at a minimum 10% different then any tomb stone character.

To hard core?

:)
User avatar
Jessie
 
Posts: 3343
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:54 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:26 am

Ha Ha.. MMO?. Thats D&D rules. if you die you dont get that character anymore. you dont get to create a character like that anymore. If the game were to be hard core then it should remember the dead character you created in a tomb stone. the next character you would create couldnt have the same name class and would have to be at a minimum 10% different then any tomb stone character.

To hard core?

:)

Almost... :biggrin:

I would like that! A great idea. (even though Todd :bowdown: would probably say it's meaningless and doesn't truly add to the gaming experience).
User avatar
Richard Thompson
 
Posts: 3302
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:49 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:17 pm

A very good point, my friend.

The sooner all difficulty option are taken out of all games, the better. You have easy parts to the game, and you have hard parts. Don't put in a stupid slider

Ok, I was with you on the save restrictions (as an option), but this is just arrant stupidity. Not all players have equal skill, that's why there's a difficulty slider, so players of different skill can enjoy the game. Any company that forces only players of a given skill level to enjoy their game is going to lose an absolute fortune, and a lot of people would lose their jobs.

I really, really hope you were being fatuous here for humorous effect, and I just didn't get it.
User avatar
Emilie Joseph
 
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:28 am

Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:24 pm

Almost... :biggrin:

I would like that! A great idea. (even though Todd :bowdown: would probably say it's meaningless and doesn't truly add to the gaming experience).


depends on your ambitions. It also depends on the game being played. D&D was never buggy. computer games are full of them so they have to have saves and lots of them or it takes the fun away. the saves are more like an unstuck button if you use them that way. Its either that or get stuck at some point through the game and create a new character because the other one has been tombstoned due to an issue that wasnt your fault.

when video games first started there were no save points but they were not full of bugs as they were simple in design. you die you start over. those games were not my cup of tea because it was a race for how far you could get on a quarter. Games have so surpassed that this day thank heaven. I wouldnt want this game to become that. a race to see how far you could get before it bugged on you.

:)
User avatar
Cathrine Jack
 
Posts: 3329
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:29 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:58 am

Solution to "Save game cheating"

1: Chant the following to yourself: "The game is singleplayer...the game is singleplayer....nobody else's playstyle affects me in any way...nobody else's playstyle affects me in any way..." (Repeat for at least 15 minutes)

2: Realizing that someone else spam-saving doesn't in any way change your playing experience, save (or don't) as often (or as little) as you like

3: Get over your insecure obsession that someone somewhere may be having more fun than you, play your own game, and let them play theirs


tl;dr "Don't like 'save and reload' tactics, you don't have to use them." :meh:
User avatar
Tamara Primo
 
Posts: 3483
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:15 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:21 am

Ack, two threads!

Well here's my http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168726-my-best-friend-and-worst-enemy-the-save-button/page__view__findpost__p__17219072

Mod merge threads perhaps?
User avatar
Leah
 
Posts: 3358
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:11 pm

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:36 am

Solution to "Save game cheating"

1: Chant the following to yourself: "The game is singleplayer...the game is singleplayer....nobody else's playstyle affects me in any way...nobody else's playstyle affects me in any way..." (Repeat for at least 15 minutes)

2: Realizing that someone else spam-saving doesn't in any way change your playing experience, save (or don't) as often (or as little) as you like

3: Get over your insecure obsession that someone somewhere may be having more fun than you, play your own game, and let them play theirs


tl;dr "Don't like 'save and reload' tactics, you don't have to use them." :meh:


So you're suggesting that abstaining from something is exactly the same as being unable to do it? In some cases (say an item you didn't want to use - i.e. somethign far away that you could just ignore or remove) I would agree but this isn't one of them, the option to save is a button press away at any time and no matter how much 'self control' you have not being able to save gives the game a different tone to refusing to save. You lose the experience you were looking for by removing the feature because if you are making a deliberate effort to not use the feature you lose a lot of the "I really wish I could save right about now..." pressure that such a feature is designed to produce.

I'm, going to point out here that I in no way support the the removal of quicksave, I quite like it, but i see this kind of thing too often, there is an important difference between abstaining from a major game feature and it not being available.
User avatar
Pat RiMsey
 
Posts: 3306
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:22 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:20 am

So here's another point of view from the other that I posted.

I'm a tinkerer and experimenter. I like to anolyze, guess, try out my theory, and then go from there. Time and time again; it's in my blood because I'm a science nerd. Is that cheating? It's part of the game for me, and you'd be taking away that part of the game.
User avatar
Madeleine Rose Walsh
 
Posts: 3425
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:07 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:11 am

Basically it's this:

"I've just joined the Dark Brotherhood and I'm carefully sneaking behind this man, about to assassinate him, killing him permanently, knowing that whatever I do is final and absolute. This is it - there is no turning back now."

VS

"Well I'll just stroll up to this guy and stab a couple times, see what happens. If it doesn't go my way, not a big deal, I'll just reload"


Sooooo, since this is a single player game, how bout you make a personal rule (for yourself), that you can only save on rest. Then the rest of us don't have to conform to your preferred style of play. Everyone wins.
User avatar
Kortknee Bell
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:05 pm

Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:28 pm

I should be able to save as frequently as I please, or as sparingly as I please. Saving frequently keeps me from crashing.
I like that Bethesda offers this in game.
As for some people considering it cheating, too damn bad. If the option to save and reload exists, then I am going to use it. You can play the game however you choose, and I really don't give a fat rat's ass. I expect you, OP to extend the same courtesy to other gamers, and not judge them.

Also, it's a videogame, not real life. Tools exist in game for the purpose of utilizing them. If you have difficulty seperating real world from gaming world, perhaps it's time for a break.
User avatar
Mrs Pooh
 
Posts: 3340
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:30 pm

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:09 pm

The inability to save is a big problem when you need to stop playing...

And if you don't want to cheat, don't. It's not really your problem if others do.


Edit: I think that option 4 sounds like a real pain, considering that bugs are not choices, and it svcks to autosave with them.
User avatar
Paul Rice
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:51 am

Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:55 pm

No, if it doesn't go my way, I just deal with it. choices and consequences is the way i like it.
User avatar
Eve Booker
 
Posts: 3300
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:53 pm

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:00 am

:lightbulb:
Solution to "Save game cheating"

1: Chant the following to yourself: "The game is singleplayer...the game is singleplayer....nobody else's playstyle affects me in any way...nobody else's playstyle affects me in any way..." (Repeat for at least 15 minutes)

2: Realizing that someone else spam-saving doesn't in any way change your playing experience, save (or don't) as often (or as little) as you like

3: Get over your insecure obsession that someone somewhere may be having more fun than you, play your own game, and let them play theirs

tl;dr "Don't like 'save and reload' tactics, you don't have to use them." :meh:

Correctly simply don't use quick save, or only use it as a backup to autosave. as in quicksave outside dungeon, do a hard save before major quests in case of quest bugs.

If this don't help make a potion of fortify willpower and drink it. It might be possible to remap away the quicksave button on pc or simply remove the F5 key from the keyboard, you can put it back later.

Different people play different ways. My funniest elder scroll character was a Bosmer mage who was heavy into fortify intelligence potion abuse. As she was able to cast pretty devastating magic I turned the dificulty up to max and played with the Morrowind Advanced mod who adds lots of high level enemies, cliffracers who cast fireballs was one of the few who did not kill me in a single hit, did I die a lot yes.
User avatar
Danielle Brown
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:03 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:26 am

A very good point, my friend.

The sooner all difficulty option are taken out of all games, the better. You have easy parts to the game, and you have hard parts. Don't put in a stupid slider

I have played dozens of games limiting saving and dozen with no option for difficulty, everything you want you can already control yourself. Like I do with fast travel.

And if you really wanted to mod.

Please stop assuming you know what is best for others.
User avatar
lucile davignon
 
Posts: 3375
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:40 pm

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:32 am

Are you kidding OP? Just play the game how YOU want to play. Why change the game for everyone? I can't see how this could possibly annoy you since you are never forced to save in TES. When and where to save is completely up to you. So how does this even affect you at all? Especially to want to change it for the thousands of other people playing the game.
User avatar
Suzy Santana
 
Posts: 3572
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:02 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:17 am

Are you kidding OP? Just play the game how YOU want to play. Why change the game for everyone? I can't see how this could possibly annoy you since you are never forced to save in TES. When and where to save is completely up to you. So how does this even affect you at all? Especially to want to change it for the thousands of other people playing the game.


This. Save-anywhere gives you a lot more freedom than save points or limits. If you want to try something different, you can just save first and if you mess something up accidentally or otherwise then you can simply reload. Last I checked, that's the kind of thing TES encouraged.
User avatar
Shianne Donato
 
Posts: 3422
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:55 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:19 am

One time i get stuck in some box in the expancion SI... "Oh crap! Why i didnt save the game??"

So now i have a folder with 1200 savegames of one character :D
User avatar
Chelsea Head
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:38 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:38 am

The inability to save is a big problem when you need to stop playing...

And if you don't want to cheat, don't. It's not really your problem if others do.



Exactly
User avatar
Sabrina Schwarz
 
Posts: 3538
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:02 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:31 pm

Definately keep the old way. There have been a few times when I got stuck and couldn't move at all. If it saved constantly I would've had to delete those characters instead of reloading a save 10 minutes ago and making a point not to go there.
User avatar
Inol Wakhid
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:47 am

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:38 pm

You need an "other" option because my idea doesn't fit your poll.

I think the Save option should be very close to Oblivion's current system (save when and wherever you like) with a few caveats:

1. If you are reloading every 10 seconds after trying to use lock picks that break, the reloading option will be suspended for 5-10 minutes unless you move a long ways away from where you were standing when reloading constantly. No cheating with lockpicks.
2. If you go to fight in the Arena, to promote more excitement, you can only save your game at the moment you obtain your next fight, but each fight is 2 minutes in the future and during that time you cannot save. Having to wait 2 minutes between each reload will be a penalty that will make losing svck more and make winning feel more victorious. Also, no cheating by saving every time you hit the monster 2-3 good wacks while receiving none. This is the "inch-along-n'-save" cheat of winning by gradual steps forward.
3. Certain Roleplaying elements within the game should come with an automatic auto-save feature after each important decision is made, so if you try to reload it then, you only go back to "after" your decision was made. Live with the consequences, as you would in real life. However, the game should offer ways to get yourself out of trouble too, such as with crime lords, thieves, underworld characters, or black-market magic users with solutions to whatever problem you got into ... for a price. So even if you get yourself out, it will cost you.
4. When combat begins, the save feature is disabled. If you saved your game before that, you can reload to there, but you can't reload to the middle of combat.
5. No saving while in prison (no waiting either) but a real prison system with people and choices to make, and work to be done for a short time, and if you get into a battle and survive, the game automatically saves the game for you, but you can't save it at any other time while in prison until your release. If you make some enemies, or some friends, if your enemies vow to follow you out of prison, or your friend dies because of your mistake, you live with the results in prison (saving is a freedom and prison is about no freedom) .... and once you return to your life again, the save feature is opened up again.

This would greatly reduce cheating while allowing for freedom everywhere else, and improve the feeling of risk associated with combat and force players to keep from cheating with regards to their skill use such as with Lockpicking and Repairing (your metal swords and armour), while making prison the lack of freedom it is supposed to be (with the caveat of autosaving after a battle where you win...)

Could be more interesting that way.
User avatar
Gavin boyce
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:19 pm

PreviousNext

Return to V - Skyrim