Save game "cheating" and how to solve it : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:40 pm

This just reminds me to have more self control when I play not to constantly reload when things dont go my way, but to remove or limit a feature because I cant control myself I dont agree with...

Brings up and interesting perspective on fast travel, same argument. Im against fast travel but my main argument is that because they implement it, they take out other means of travel, but this is a different issue.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:44 pm

I used save "cheating" simply for lack of a better term. But it kind of is cheating in some cases. A cheating of the game itself

So who does it negatively effect? I mean you want this feature included, because it a cheat of sorts right? I mean it lessens most peoples game experiences to have it, but you think it would improve it to have this feature, you can just limit your own saving and all the people who don't like this, don't have to have it mess with their play experience. Everyone wins this way

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:12 am

IF you don't like it don't do it. DUH. Your like a nicotine addict thats wants to quit but itsn't strong enough to unless he gets people to hide all his cigarettes from him.

Yes, but I would argue that the majority of gamers are. It's exactly like the Topic poster describes. People don't have the strong will, so they abuse the game. It's only natural. Nothing to be ashamed of. One could argue that people are programmed to try to choose the easiest way in a given situation, almost instinctively. This tendency in us is acknowledged by some game makers though. As I said a few posts above, Mount & Blade has a hardcoe option that forces the player to bear the consequences. In that mode you can only save the game when quitting. It's for people who want the challenge and the excitement the thread maker describes when you are hunted by an enemy or whatever and you feel like you really risk losing something.
This phenomenon is also acknowledged in most MMOs where the consequences of death hurt. Some MMOs even have perma death (now that's hardcoe :hubbahubba: ).

Let me emphasize that limited saving should only be built in a hardcoe mode (and even in that mode it would be optional). Default mode should be save as much as you can without restrictions. Obviously the majority want the ability to save freely (I do to when I want to relax). This doesn't rule out the option to include a hardcoe mode though for us who would love it, even though we're a small minority.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:42 pm

Continuous backup save system? AKA autosave? :banghead:

Yeah... did you overlook the part where i said in case of catastrophic save failure?

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:13 pm

Yes, but I would argue that the majority of gamers are. It's exactly like the Topic poster describes. People don't have the strong will, so they abuse the game.

Who cares about the other people and the way they reload saves? It's a single player game. :swear:

Yeah... did you overlook the part where i said in case of catastrophic save failure?

So you want an autoautosave? I'm done with your shenanigans.

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:33 am

Extremely well put, well described and it reflects my feelings completely! Great thread. Your options should be options in a hardcoe mode. You could first choose to click hardcoe mode on or off, and then under the hardcoe menu there would be different sub-options you tick on and off, such as the handling of saving conditions.

Too bad only 10% agree with us lol :swear: but still Bethesda could implement this under a hardcoe mode and make everyone happy. :celebration:

Btw, in Mount & Blade you have the option named "save only when quitting"*. So basically in that mode you can never take back your decisions. Let's say you decide to attack a hard castle, a really risky move, and you lose the battle. If you lose the battle you lose all your men and you have to start recruiting a new army from scratch again. That's a huge misfortune but makes the game very challenging and rewarding. I would like such an option in Elder Scrolls.

Also, I do not have the discipline to not abuse the saving system. I always troll and play around and then just reload (thus I never ever end up in jail in Elder Scrolls, I just reload, always :banghead: ). But I really don't want it to be this way, it's just that I have a weak will. Therefore I need this hardcoe option, I need the game to help me get a challenging experience.

Please Bethesda, read this thread. Make a hardcoe mode and implement within it an option for the player to decide the saving conditions! :bowdown:

EDIT: *changed the name of the hardcoe saving option in Mount & blade to its proper name.

Thanks for the support, muthsera.

At least there's one other person out there who understands my vision

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:18 pm

Interesting anologue. And funnily enough, yes, you would have to think a bit harder about a simply thing like "2 + 2". If a gun was put to your head and that question posed, I think you would find it a bit different than a casual scenario. No matter how simple something is, if your life is on the line, you will have to think carefully about the outcome. You would ensure you were definite in your answer and be clear in your deliverance and communication of the answer etc, if your life in the balance. It would require greater mental exertion

You would only doubt yourself because the answer was so obvious, that the man could have be insane, or stupid, this is scenario where figuring out the man with the gun is the real problem, not where the equation is the problem.

No, I never said it would result in the exact scenario of unlimited saves, it would however result in much more satisfaction in exchange for some minor annoyances. You wouldn't be able to predict and preserve your game perfectly in every case like if you had unrestricted saves, and thus there would be the occasional death where you would get frustrated. And you know what? A little bit of frustration is what makes a good game.

[censored], we already have people being punished for not saving smartly, because forgetting to save after 30min of play puts you 30mins back when you finally die, and realize your mistake. And if you intentionally don't save or only save every 30min, than it a fight is just as "exciting" as you would have it, because you know that you haven't saved for 20min, and if you die, you will have to redo those 20min, failing to uphold your code of honor and saving, means you already failed, and you are punished with the lacking "excitement" that you apparently get from such situations.

All of this is do able with unlimited saves, the only thing that is not possible, is that you can dictate how other people should play the game, and as such you can't use it as "bragging rights", which is fine, because it's a singleplayer roleplaying game, and you aren't supposed to give a [censored] about how other people experience the game. When you are in the game, other people aren't supposed to exist.

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:25 am

So you want an autoautosave? I'm done with your shenanigans.

*facepalm* ...still leaving out the part where I said IN CASE OF SAVE GAME CORRUPTION - meaning you are unable to restore these saves unless your last one becomes corrupt

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:16 pm

I respect your opinion, but for an open world game like the TES series, it's hard for me to imagine a worse idea to implement than this.

The entire idea behind the TES games is that you can play them however you want. However you want. If people want to save right before they try stealing a sword, only to reload and do it over 50 times because they failed, that's their choice. Hell, one of my fondest memories of Morrowind was stealing all the glass armour from Ghostgate at like, level 5, because I was reloading for an hour straight, trying to figure out how to do it just right.

The second you say to somebody playing a TES game "No, you can't play it like that," you may as well take away flexible skill systems, and force people to choose from a list of classes with set skills. Or take away the whole 'open world' element, and just have specific areas you move through like Fable.

If there are people who want to play like that, they're free to enforce such rules on themselves voluntarily, like any roleplayer would do. Building it into the game itself, however, seems like a mistake.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:19 pm

*facepalm* ...still leaving out the part where I said IN CASE OF SAVE GAME CORRUPTION - meaning you are unable to restore these saves unless your last one becomes corrupt

Show me a game where that happens. Please. And you're not even understanding what you're saying. It does a little secret :ninja: autosave and hides from you until your real save doesn't load? Good luck with that.

All of this is do able with unlimited saves, the only thing that is not possible, is that you can dictate how other people should play the game, and as such you can't use it as "bragging rights", which is fine, because it's a singleplayer roleplaying game, and you aren't supposed to give a [censored] about how other people experience the game. When you are in the game, other people aren't supposed to exist.

:twirl: :thumbsup:

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:33 pm

I don't see how thats cheating. I doubt more than a hand ful of people want to completely start over when they die.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:24 pm

As I said before, in "Mounts and Blades", at the start of each character, you were asked if you wanted a realistic game, or a game where you could save and load as you liked, and from then on you would play that character with that method.

So some characters were easier to play, and some provided a more realistic challenge.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:31 pm

All right fine! I secede.
I admit that I did not expect so many Elder Scrolls fans to need their delicate little hands held, thought we were a bit more hardcoe in outlook. If you all don't want it, then you don't want it. Although I still think this would be an awesome option in a hardcoe mode, which I somehow doubt will be implemented.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:00 pm

Show me a game where that happens. Please. And you're not even understanding what you're saying. It does a little secret :ninja: autosave and hides from you until your real save doesn't load? Good luck with that.

What? Show you a game where that happens? That was an argument from people on your own side haha. And yes, though not often, it does and can happen, especially when you're fooling around with mods. And is that so hard to believe? You know there are programs that save and can restore your entire operating system right? ...You still think it would be so impossible to implement for a simply game?

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:23 am

Put an alarm clock on your table.
Set it to ring every 1 hour.
Save ONLY when the alarm clock rings.

There I got you your 1 hour save only, if you can′t keep up with it then you are not as hardcoe as you think you are. And honestly I don′t think you are hardcoe at all if you have 0 willpower, it′s more like being a junky (and yes I know someone else pointed this out) who wants some sort of an authority on ALL people that keeps them from what they are addicted to or enjoy. It′s like thinking yourself hardcoe because you intend to walk everywhere except every 1 hour when you allow yourself to take the car, but to accomplish that you wish for some authority that makes sure no-one ever uses his car more than for 1 trip every 1 hour.

Honestly with the car anology I′ve found people with enough willpower to never drive except under certain very specific conditions, like if they plan to travel somewhere outside of the city. If you had the willpower you could do the same and only save when you intend to take a break from the game, but if you don′t have the willpower then don′t ask someone (Bethesda) to force everyone else to go through your restrictions. You don′t see people who change their diets forcing everyone else to eat the same and making sure there is only food around the house that is not tempting and unhealthy do you ?

All right fine! I secede.
I admit that I did not expect so many Elder Scrolls fans to need their delicate little hands held, thought we were a bit more hardcoe in outlook. If you all don't want it, then you don't want it. Although I still think this would be an awesome option in a hardcoe mode, which I somehow doubt will be implemented.

Are we the ones that can′t get over our addiction to saving ?

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:09 am

All right fine! I secede.
I admit that I did not expect so many Elder Scrolls fans to need their delicate little hands held, thought we were a bit more hardcoe in outlook. If you all don't want it, then you don't want it. Although I still think this would be an awesome option in a hardcoe mode, which I somehow doubt will be implemented.

You expected anything more?

The thing is...you can still have the system you want with the way things are now. You just have to hold yourself to saving once an hour at most. The system now is fine, because it allows people to play as hardcoe as you want. Some really hardcoe people accept death as real, and go start a new character after that. Other's can save to their hearts content. Its really fine the way it is now. No need to restrict it, when it can be as hard or as easy as you want.

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:07 am

Time isn't linear, people's actions are linear. There is no time.

I live in three dimensions :hubbahubba:

The only way to make it so quicksave is less needed is simply make it so the game isn't so action-linear. If the gameplay were more stable and rounded to start with, you wouldn't need to quicksave so often. The issue as I see it is that the game often funnels you down one gameplay pathway of some kind, and often there's no turning back. You need a way to escape from fights, you need a way to correct your mistakes, or moreover make it so the game is altered in interesting and fun ways when you do make irreversible mistakes.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:29 pm

I can't even imagine how you consider that "cheating". It's a video game. You can save before you do stuff. :shrug:
I really don't see them changing this, and I hope they don't, as that's a little ridiculous.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:29 pm

Put an alarm clock on your table.
Set it to ring every 1 hour.
Save ONLY when the alarm clock rings.

There I got you your 1 hour save only, if you can′t keep up with it then you are not as hardcoe as you think you are. And honestly I don′t think you are hardcoe at all if you have 0 willpower, it′s more like being a junky (and yes I know someone else pointed this out) who wants some sort of an authority on ALL people that keeps them from what they are addicted to or enjoy. It′s like thinking yourself hardcoe because you intend to walk everywhere except every 1 hour when you allow yourself to take the car, but to accomplish that you wish for some authority that makes sure no-one ever uses his car more than for 1 trip every 1 hour.

Honestly with the car anology I′ve found people with enough willpower to never drive except under certain very specific conditions, like if they plan to travel somewhere outside of the city. If you had the willpower you could do the same and only save when you intend to take a break from the game, but if you don′t have the willpower then don′t ask someone (Bethesda) to force everyone else to go through your restrictions. You don′t see people who change their diets forcing everyone else to eat the same and making sure there is only food around the house that is not tempting and unhealthy do you ?

You expected anything more?

The thing is...you can still have the system you want with the way things are now. You just have to hold yourself to saving once an hour at most. The system now is fine, because it allows people to play as hardcoe as you want. Some really hardcoe people accept death as real, and go start a new character after that. Other's can save to their hearts content. Its really fine the way it is now. No need to restrict it, when it can be as hard or as easy as you want.

Guys, I've said it time and time again, it is impossible to attain what I want with the current system, and the willpower argument is irrelevant where simply having the option exist is detrimental. Like someone else pointed out, it's hard to counteract human nature, and so what if you want to be forced to be hardcoe? Isn't that what would make something hardcoe? If you're doing something allegedly "hardcoe" on your own accord, then it must not be that difficult for you, and thus not very "hardcoe."

If you have to impose the restriction upon yourself continuously, but can quit at any moment things get too hard, then that doesn't sound very hardcoe to me.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:58 pm

I don't need my hand held, I need to eat, go to the toilet, live a life, and most importantly of all, as far as this argument is concerned, I do not want my only save file to be corrupted and lose my character.

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:06 pm

I respect your opinion, but for an open world game like the TES series, it's hard for me to imagine a worse idea to implement than this.

The entire idea behind the TES games is that you can play them however you want. However you want.

Exactly!! And that is exactly why we (a small minority) want to be able to play the game without Save game cheating!

Elder Scrolls means everything to me. It's the ultimate cyber space experience for me. I love to be able to feel all these wonderful feelings I already get in the world of Elder Scrolls but I would also love to be able to feel the excitement, the risk, the fear and anxiety that a save restriction option would give me. Lots of stuff that didn't have much meaning before would be super important and exciting with this option. I want thievery to have consequences in my gaming experience. I want to be punished sometimes and end up in jail etc

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:32 pm

Exactly!! And that is exactly why we (a small minority) want to be able to play the game without Save game cheating!

Elder Scrolls means everything to me. It's the ultimate cyber space experience for me. I love to be able to feel all these wonderful feelings I already get in the world of Elder Scrolls but I would also love to be able to feel the excitement, the risk, the fear and anxiety that a save restriction option would give me. Lots of stuff that didn't have much meaning before would be super important and exciting with this option. I want thievery to have consequences in my gaming experience. I want to be punished sometimes and end up in jail etc

Considered not loading ?

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:34 am

Saving is not a cheat, and even if it was... It's a single player game. You're only cheating yourself, why should Bethesda restrict it? If people think that it's cheap to reload for every theft that went wrong, they can choose not to do it. No need to limit saving this way, it'll only be frustrating for when you just want to save your game but can't.

» Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:57 am

Guys, I've said it time and time again, it is impossible to attain what I want with the current system

Woe is you, Bethesda can't make a game that has everything you want in it.

In regards to the Mount and Blade system, that's very different. In M&B, when you die in a battle, you are taken prisoner, you don't actually die and have to reload. In TES, if you die, it's game over.

The two or three of you that want this are arguing about a little menu button that you don't need to click and a mod can probably disable. :facepalm:

» Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:16 pm

Considered not loading ?

Yes but I always end up doing it anyway. The cheater in me is far too strong to control by myself. I need help from the game.