Why would we almost certainly be against them if we have the option to be with them in the base game? Makes no sense.

"75% of the map area of the game is covered in people saying how much they're afraid of the Legion, the companions love to rag on Legion"

That might be true, but who exactly are these people? NCR troops, NCR citizens or ones who simply who don't know squat or have any first-hand experience with the Legion. Raul for one has seen what the Legion has done to Arizona and he approves of them. Then there's also Dale Barton. Sure, that's only 2 examples, but unlike anyone else, they've actually seen or dealt with the Legion unlike all these other people.

"and you see evidence of Legion atrocities but never anything good they do"

Those atrocities as you'd call them is just good ol' psychological warfare, and it's definitely demoralizing NCR troops, so nothing wrong there. While you never actually *see* anything good from the Legion, do keep in mind that all you see is their war camps.

I don't buy any of this "they're simply evil" nonsense, because when it comes down to it it's all about personal perspective.

'Those atrocities as you'd call them is just good ol' psychological warfare, and it's definitely demoralizing NCR troops, so nothing wrong there. While you never actually *see* anything good from the Legion, do keep in mind that all you see is their war camps.

I don't buy any of this "they're simply evil" nonsense, because when it comes down to it it's all about personal perspective.'

So crucifixion, immolation, beheadings, savage beatings, slavery and genocide are 'good ol' psychological warfare' and saying these things are evil is 'simply nonsense'? Well, as this Forum frowns on real politics, I'll abstain from giving examples of real world atrocities and societies. But I will say this -- murderous brutality has psychological effects on one's foes, true. But generally 'good ol' psychological warfare leaves survivors.

Also, Caesar's Legion is only slightly based on ancient Rome. It is largely cosmetic; even the shallowest reading of history will amply demonstrate the vast differences.

It's also important to remember that the fun-loving, cuddly Legion is being directed by a man who is physically infirm; he has a brain tumor. One of the primary symptoms of a brain tumor is psychological damage. Unlike history's other insane dictators, Caesar has an excuse, but that still does not change the fact that the Legion is directed by, and worships, a raving lunatic who admits that the Legion is only an experimental form of ideological revenge. He's educated enough to talk a good game but in the end he's just another maniac making things worse.

This isn't directed solely at the person who posted this, but all who continue to champion the Legion. I sincerely hope that you are just screwing around for fun and don't really think the policies of Caesar would be beneficial in real life. They wouldn't, and they never have.

"So crucifixion, immolation, beheadings, savage beatings, slavery and genocide are 'good ol' psychological warfare' "

......What I mean by psychological warfare, I'm referring to things like crucifixion. It's effect on your enemy's morale is clearly evident. But way to take my argument out of context.

And to all the other stuff you posted... I really hope that you're aware that this is not real life and that you're looking way too much into this.

"I sincerely hope that you are just screwing around for fun and don't really think the policies of Caesar would be beneficial in real life."

*facedesk*

Good lord, how's your nose?
Heh. Listen, it's really hard to tell sometimes. I try to keep stuff in context, but people get so passionate about loving what are plainly the bad guys it gets easy to wonder what they're really thinking. Some of you guys get really heated about defending the Legion, you know?
I think I'm just going to stop going on about this -- it's pretty pointless. Plus, you know, Great Khans supporter here. :biggrin:

I don't like the legion (politically) but I feel that they do deserve mroe content. I would love to see an expansion that goes a bit east and maybe you see another legion Stronhold.

It'd be cool if you enter the Legion territory kinda like the Pitt as a Slave, then you have to either quell or lead a rebellion. Except better done then the Pitt :whistling: .

Yeah well you know, opinions and all that.

You don't get to make demands of the J.E. Sawyer.

Regardless of the initial plan, they still come out as the baddies; most NPCs range from dislike to fear of them and all we see from them are atrocities. That may have been caused by design limitations, but it's what happened.



Look, no offense, but nobody took this argument out of context; this statement is startlingly inaccurate in context. You are literally saying that crucifixion of entire town populations, forced slavery and abuse of women, etc, are just "good ol'" (to use your exact words) terror tactics.

Yes, they are "good ol'" terror tactics. But, you see, the thing about terror tactics? They're supposed to be overly brutal and horrifying to, y'know, cause terror. Legion's methods of enforcing law are most certainly evil; whether you believe the ends justify the means is another thing, but arguing that what they do is in of itself anything but evil is simply nonsensical.

Human crucifixion simply for being "immoral" can't be called anything but an atrocity, as far as I'm concerned. It's horrific, brutal, and entirely disproportional.

this,nuff said

I've been debating doing a Talon Company companion mod, eventually; my current one's going to take a while to finish but I want to do another one and I do want to make him a mercenary of some sorts, just can't think of how to justify Talon Co. personnel ending up in the Mojave.

The NCR also controls most of the map since they won the first battle for the dam so it's only to be expected that the Legion wouldn't be very popular.

Crucifixion of entire towns? When you walk into Nipton, what exactly do you see? Powder Gangers. Crucified Powder Gangers to be exact. I've argued Nipton over and over again and it's not gonna win you any points in the long run, so I think we should just leave it at that? Unless you insist of course.

The Legion's way of enforcing laws are very strict and alien to say the least, but I think that it only strengthens their society in the end. If Arizona is to be believed. Caesar's Legion rules with an iron hand, let there be no doubt about that.

And what does this have to do with them deserving a dlc again...

*sigh*........................................................................................

Because Caesar's Legion got completely shafted in terms of in-game content. But the thread has typically escalated into anti legion thread.

Sorry, but that dog's just not gonna hunt; Nipton's full of murdered Wastelander corpses and even has a crucified Prospector; try visiting it ingame again. Vulpes himself says they crucified people just for being prosttutes. So, if someone's forced into prostitution to provide for themselves or their family because you have no other options (not hard to imagine in a nuclear wasteland), or is even a compulsive gambler, then that makes it okay for the Legion to crucify that individual in your eyes?

I'm not anti-Legion, I'm just trying to point out the ridiculousness of pretending they aren't committing brutal and horrific atrocities.

So where exactly are all these wastelander corpses you speak of? I've yet to find a single one.....Well, aside from that one corpse in the Town Hall. While I'm definitely not saying that only PG's were crucified at Nipton, others certainly were, but I'm saying that a place inhabited by Powder Ganger can impossibly be a good one.



Nipton was a f''ed up place, even Ghost would agree to that. And that mayor only made it worse. If not the Legion, it'd be someone else. It also sends out a message to the NCR, as this is war after all.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb230/SwampLord450/ScreenShot17.jpg

I'm not disagreeing that Nipton was not the best place to live, but I hardly think you can argue that stealing, gambling or prostitution (possibly because it's your only job option) entitle a group of people to brutally and sadistically execute you. No?

There are other ways of "sending a message" besides sadistically murdering the entire populace of a town. Sure, it "sends a message" but I honestly don't see how you can justify that from a moral standpoint. It's evil, Legion does evil stuff in the name of law and order, if you think the ends justify the means that's your call but there's no denying they take evil actions.

Like, do you have the moral right to crucify a prosttute you see in the streets in, say, New York just because she's a prosttute? That's the argument you're making right now.

Just because odds are somebody would take a wrecking ball to Nipton sooner or later doesn't justify what Legion did there.

The Legion is basically the Taliban: zealots who brutally butcher anyone who doesn't agree with their vision for society. Misogynistic, and pompously censorious. Going back in history, Caesar is like Oliver Cromwell. Initially welcomed for the order they bring, then rapidly resented because of their dominating, puritanical ideology. People don't like being told how to live their lives for very long.

The NCR is basically pretty much like current western democracies. A little corrupt, and bureaucratic; but bringing the rule of law and an organised society. As Winston Churchill said "Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."

I can't bring myself to do the Legion quests because the Legion is so unremittingly heinous. I can see no role-play reason for the PC to join them - even a bad character wouldn't like them because they're constantly rude - calling the player 'profligate scum' etc. There's no profit to be made from them. Dictators have a habit of killing helpers when their usefulness is spent (see the Legionaries suicide mission in Camp Searchlight. They were just told to open the canisters, not that they'd die along with the NCR as a result). So I just shoot the Legion on sight.

Ah, right, you got me there. I actually haven't traversed the town hall since November.... Or maybe it's just the doing of one of the 9000 mods you have installed

But Nipton was a still a cesspool of a town that only cared about making a buck by all means. It simply had to go one way or the other, and the Legion would have absolutely no use of its inhabitants in their civilization. Hell, no one even tried to fight back. All they cared about was winning the lottery if Vulpes is to be believed.

Because of Joshua Graham, the Burned Man. I would imagine you side with him, against the Legion.

With prosttutes he meant how the town did anything for money. (altough the mayor got his position by pimping two women, too) Like they served both Powder Gangers and NCR troopers. Then Vulpes comes and offers them money for killing them both and they accept.

That kind of whoring.

Sounds like a lovely place, doesn't it? But it helps proving my point.

Nipton was a cesspool, I'm not debating that. The issue is that being a cesspool doesn't warrant mass execution; I'm sure some of Nipton's citizens had it coming to them, but there were others who didn't, and they were executed en masse anyways. Legion "justice" doesn't discriminate, it uses terror and guilt by association to keep populaces in line.

I would only buy something so specialized if it did NOT ruin any of my other carefully built reputations. Of course, whether I'd buy it or not doesn't mean anything in the big scheme of things. I'm just saying.

I would be surprised if there was great demand for a DLC that focused exclusively on Legion since siding with Legion is a surefire way to get the entire Mojave to hate your guts.