I'm not saying that it should be scaled like Oblivion. I think that if you try to do the main quest at level 1, it should be quite challenging, and the reward(s) should be somewhat diminished. By the end of the MQ though you should have grown by several levels, making it a bit easier to get out and explore the rest of the world.

If you start the main quest at level 30, it should be a bit less challenging, but still difficult enough to keep you on your toes. The reward(s) associated with doing the MQ should also be greater if you do it at a higher level. Maybe doing it at a higher level could even open up some alternate paths at some points along the line...

I don't think the MQ should be a walk in the park; I think it should be scaled precisely for that reason. If you don't scale it, it will be difficult or impossible for a weak character, and an inconsequential waste of time for powerful characters.

That was probably the goal with Oblivion, to be able to do anything at anytime. As you can see it wasn't well received. In concept it sounds great but in practice it makes everything feel really artificial and unrewarding.

I love that you mentioned this. It's an absolutely perfect example for why no level scaling is good. In a scaled system and level 1 with a rusty dagger, you'll kill the ogre most of the time without too much difficulty. In an unscaled system, you'll have to fight tooth and nail, using any and all of the pitiful resources and tactics you can think of to win.

Same thing with the quests you mentioned. You're free to attempt any that you like. If you're smart and careful, you can probably get the sweet rewards of a higher level quest when you're weaker, but there is a limitation to what you can do with what you have.

Haha, try a mudcrab. Crafty buggers.

However, I don't understand what you mean by "Not getting a better character, becoming a better player.".

How is that not progression? You almost kind of level with your character. As your skills improve you can move onto finding better gear, and becoming more skilled at obtaining such things for your survival. It makes you think " How can I kill him, without alerting him ". Instead of " Screw this, CHARGE!"

Level scaling just says " Here's this huge game, go beat the crap out of everything. You can't fail "

alright, well, you've convinced. there is ONE huge concession to that though
I don't ever ever EVER want TES to use much stronger monsters as basically an 'invisible wall'
Examples from TES and other games.
The Midgar Serpent in FF7, as well as many of the 'weapons' later in the game. I know you could kill them eventually, but mostly they were there to keep you out COMPLETELY of certain areas. Sorry if this is a reference not everyone can get.
Mehrunes Dagon at the end of Oblivion (i get that you can't kill him, but then why make him fightable at all? and he's really just there to force you in the direction of the Temple of the One)
To lazy to think of others, but you get the idea right? Thats just my big fear. Having, say, a giant who patrols the border of some region, and he's not there because that area is harder, but to plain and simple give a cheap excuse to keep you out entirely.

I have little reason to believe TES would do this, but...

Another Example: Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. He is there to keep people from passing, that is all (at least from the story aspect, from our aspect it is to be hilarious). He destroys the weak foe, but Arthur is able to down him easily.

I agree though, they shouldn't be an invisible wall. I should have an equal chance to meet a minotaur in a specific spot whether I am level 1 and get thrashed by it or if I am level 50 and hunting them for sport. You can't grind in a game like this because you have no guarantee that you will run into the same enemy you want to fight all over. Plus this would give dungeons a ton of depth, there may be a few measly rats in the beginning of the dungeon but you get farther in and there and there is some bigger evil.

HAHA I would love a giant that patrols areas! As long as he was killable, at certian levels of course. it would be much funner than just saying. Can't enter till level 25 or something like that.
but, my dream would be that they would tell you what regions are specified for what levels. Example, bitter coast reogion: level 25, ascadian isles: level 5. I think it would give a good feeling of progresion and keeping people out of places until certian levels, also, for the main quest it would give a good reason to go freelance.

Its more fun not knowing what you'll see next and your not overpowered when there is no level scaling.

Don't worry, they wouldn't.

They'd just throw an invisible wall in place and when you try to go past it'd pop up something saying "You cannot go this way, turn back."

D4rk One said:

? Eliminates a sense of progressioncome with raising your character's level
? Creates a very artificial and unrealistic system of loot collecting/progression
? If anything, it offers incentive for the player not to level up
? There are way better systems for determining enemy strength IMO (see this topic for my own in-depth proposal)
? Removes challenges and rewards associated with exploring places that may be too dangerous for your level

This, especially the last point.

this what?

Forgot to hit qoute button. :whistling:

What I want a dynamic world based on rules. Content appearing based on time. Day creatures, night creatures. Winter and summer creatures. Clearing a cave from bandits causing sea raiders to fill it next time. Killing too many deers causing wolfs being hostile. Killing too many wolves causing deer population to rise. Level scaling is a very cheap way to create a dynamic world.

I think hunting a lion. You can be the best hunter in the world, possessing incredible skills but it is still a life and death situation, in every single time. Also an amateur can hunt a lion in his first attempt. That's a very exciting thing to think about. Damage sponges are not.

Also the answer to omni-God problem is skill atrophy.

Maybe it is harder to create in comparison to leveled lists for programmers but I see that as the key to a living breathing world.

I prefer a mixed system of leveled and unleveled. Low level loot should never be scaled up (a worthless dungeon run stays worthless). Some high level loot may be scaled down while you are below a threshold, after then it stays that high level. No GM would allow uber powerful items on a level 3 character party, so why should the game? Creatures should never be scaled, other than having variations of them where appropriate. But they should be placed so that they become more and more dangerous the further you go from the start, or mapped in some logical fashion. But the random bandits (placed further apart) should be scaled (in level, not by extreme equipment, especially rare material items). A GM either says "the trip was uneventful", or "make a perception roll", depending on how well you play your character. This is near impossible in a computer game I think. But a GM wouldn't let us have a fight if the result was a guaranteed win. The game should be better at slowing down the respawning of these kinds of ambushes as they just become annoying in the late game. Maybe the respawn time doubles each time? A dungeon should keep respawning at the level that was decided the first time you entered it, unless it suddenly becomes part of a quest. Or the *really* dangerous areas (cells) that was part of the quest was locked out until it was time. Characters and beasts scaled upon creation of a quest, should not level any further, thus making it a point to level up. If you remove all scaling from the game, it just becomes either boring or impossible. In the mountain roads east of Bruma, we face a leveled Ogre or Brown Bear about every 100 meters. Nuts. Problems is something you should be surprised by or seek out yourself, not making random encounters extremely repetitive.

I think you are absolutely correct.

The biggest selling point of Bethesda games is Choice.

The issue that some have is that in Morrowind that Choice came with Consequences. If you made a stupid choice for instance,

"Ah, I'm level 4, let me run to that giant volcano where the monsters are. They all breath fire and one of them is a demi-God, but I've got my leather shirt and my steel sword so it's cool."

then you would face the Consequences. You would die long before you reached the volcano, because that's an area intended for much higher level characters. If you played in a logical way you could explore until you started reaching enemies a bit too strong for you to take on and then head back to a safer area.

That meant you could make the Choice to gear up really well and enter an area a few levels to high for you. It would be hard, but you just might be able to get that really nice gear that you normally wouldn't be able to get.

In Oblivion you didn't have to worry because instead of their being giant alligators that walk on two legs and breath fire all around the volcano...since you're only level 4 they are instead little scamps that you can kill pretty easily.

Eliminating the scaling allows you to set goals for yourself. In Oblivion, nothing was off limits for your character, because no matter what you attempted, it would be scaled to fit your character just right. In an unscaled RPG, quests and content would have a natural progression, where you know you cannot handle the CAVERNS OF DEATH at level three, but you aspire to it eventually. So you go off and handle some lesser tasks better suited for a character of your level, and after a few levels, you remember that the CAVERNS OF DEATH still await.

When everything scales to your character, there is no variation. You never get the thrill of killing something powerful, because it's all perfectly aligned to a difficulty that is pre-decided. Fighting goblins at level 1 feels exactly the same as fighting Dremora at level 12, just with more "Kneel Churl!" and "Join my trophies, Nithing!"

The reason you're seeing such a backlash to level scaling is that Oblivion's scaling implementation is so very glaringly... Wrong. No, it doesn't break the game. But it makes the game incredibly artificial, as people have said. Consider these three things, all variations on a theme:

-In Oblivion, try to find a set (or even a piece) of Glass armor at level 1, or even level 10. You'll fail. But a dozen or so levels later, it is ubiquitous. How did that armor suddenly appear in Cyrodiil, and in such large quantities?
-Now try to find a Storm Atronach at level 1. They don't exist. All you'll find are Scamps and Clannfear Runts.
-Speaking of Runts, try to find one at level 15. Incredible! They've gone extinct! At least the Storm Atronachs seem to be prospering.

There are ways to do level scaling successfully and discretely. Both Morrowind and Fallout 3 managed to do it pretty decently, and they both had scaling. Most people aren't dead-set against it... They just don't want to be aware of it.

IMO it's not as bad as people make out (especially after having played through FFVIII, TESIV's level scaling is child's play). As you leveled up stronger monsters appeared but most enemies did not really level up with you.

The main oddity I have (and complaint that most seem to have) that occurred in Oblivion was that equipment scaled with level. So if you fought a bandit later on in game he'd have what should be a rare piece of equipment.

In Fallout 3 this issue was taken care of so I doubt if level scaling did make an appearance in Skyrim, that equipment scaling wouldn't be an issue. :shrug:

IMO I would like to see something more along the lines of regional strength. For example you go to an area you're not supposed to yet and you'd encounter higher level enemies that are out of your league. Of course I don't think we should do away with level scaling altogether but it should certainly be worked on.

Because At around LvL 40 each and every Goblin Becomes a Damage Sponge That Rival's the Survivability Of A Terminator.

Indeed.

It's not even so much that Scaled Leveling is a bad idea. It's that Bethesda implemented it universally in the most lazy way imaginable. Every creature levels, every unique weapon that can level levels (Skeleton Key doesn't), all NPCs level their gear. Not only that but Higher Levels erase lower levels.

No more rats and boars and whatnot, now it's all minotaurs and mountain lions and bears. No more Leather, Steel, and Fur now every raider living in a mausoleum is equipped in Glass, Dwemer, and Daedric.

If they implemented level ranges say... 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 20-25, 30-35, and 35+ and simply had them add to each other rather than replace that would be a huge first step. That's for beasts. Humanoid NPCs need to be more intelligently leveled.

Raiders, bandits, and highwaymen should never be much better off than they are from the start. At least not in the same damn dungeon for god's sake. Put a few high level Bandits in a dungeon somewhere sharing the loot from a royal carriage or something...but don't replace every single one.

Suddenly there's a dungeon not 50 steps from a town with 8 men all wearing the most high level armor in the game. The gates of Oblivion aren't Cyrodil's biggest problem, it's these monstrously equipped bandits.

Open world does NOT EQUAL sandbox. And most of us are against scaling systems because Beth svcked at them, and we don't trust them to do it not svckily. In their best interest, of course.

I repsectfully disagree-my most played style is stealth, and i've had characters max-level with no issues surviving. The whole point of stealth is to avoid open conflict

morrowinds leveling


fallouts leveling










oblivions leveling





however to the casual, fallouts leveling is supperior, they will probably do that but maybe scrap level scaled items, and maybe make a few enemies at a set level

As a being of supreme intelligence I say that the level-scaling system was the most detrimental thing they used in OB.

Why? you might wonder.

well, for an RPG game this kind of system is the worst thing anyone can do, because "leveling" implies progression, BUT level-scaling eliminates that need!! Which is just stupid, you can finish the game at level 5 or level 50 it makes little difference.

All in all I think oblivion's biggest flaw was the leveling/combat/magic/stealth system, which I think we will NOT see in Skyrim

It's actually worse than you are saying. At level 5, Kvatch is easy to retake. At level 50, all the non-essential guards will be crushed.

So, if you want to retake Kvatch without casualties, you must do it early.

This kind of level-scaling rewards the player for not leveling. If you level up, your character gets stronger and rewards get better but the enemies get a lot tougher (especially for NPCs to handle).